Nitin Bajaj

Hey, everyone. Welcome to the industry show. I’m your host, Nitin Bajaj. And joining me today is Anshu Gupta. Anshu, welcome on the show.

Anshu Gupta

Thank you.

Nitin Bajaj

Great to have you here. Let’s start with who is Anshu?

Anshu Gupta

Oh, I think Anshu, Anshu is a dreamer, and Anshu is a a dreamer and a doer, not only a not only a thinker. And I would say Anshu has a lot of kiras. I mean, whatever you, call it. I wanted to be a wanted to be a writer, photographer. Correct. I’m continuing that, but not in that way. With some pieces, I keep doing it.

Nitin Bajaj

Love that. And I’ve gotten to know little parts of you. I’ve seen those stories, the Jalakoto stories that have come out. But I’ve what what I’ve seen and what I’ve been truly inspired by is your work on the ground, helping people, helping save lives. So tell us why you did this, why you started Goonj and what is Goonj. And you know we’ll talk a little bit about the impact the the work that you and the team have done over the years. But, yeah, please start with why did you start this thing and, tell us what Goonj is today.

Anshu Gupta

I think I think Goonj happened to me, because you come from a completely different background. I I did my journalism and masters in economics. And, all these, you know, like like, one of the life lesson for me personally is also, in India, I always say I mean, the what what you say in English now is that you whether you observe it or you just see it. So I think I’ve I I’ve been I’ve been blessed to, have the observing, for all. And that’s where you that’s where you came across the entire issue or rather the nonissue of clothing, that how clothing is completely ignored. Even when you talk about 3 basic need to say food, clothing, and jacket, but clothing is ignored. That’s how the journey started, to make sure that clothing becomes an issue, for the larger part of the population, not just the fashion statement, but, what are the need. Mhmm. And then it, because our lenses were of, dignity, because of, our own upbringing. So that’s how this entire concept of using this entire material. K. Log details, but we are doing anything and everything, which still has a life, which has we should not go to the landfill before completing its life cycle. Mhmm. On top of nonliving thing. Right. How do we convert that into a new currency, a new economy where people solve their problems? People dig well, make roads, hardcore water, sanitation environment, and infrastructure, and then they’re rewarded in kind. Mhmm. So it’s a it’s a new economy. Or it’s the revival of the water economy. But that’s what Moon does. A lot of people think that we are in the business of collecting and distributing clothes. They’re absolutely wrong. If I just pick up the, data of last 9 years, I just just on this 18th Feb, we completed over 25 years. Congratulations. Thank you. As good. We are now formally, we are there about 1,500 people in the Cognition. Anytime working on an average 20 plus states. I mean, in COVID, it even went up to 30 states and UTs. And if I pick up 9 years data, I think we have generalized just 9 years after 25 years. We have been able to channelize almost about 55,000,000 KGs of, material Wow. To the new motors part of the country, in a very new model where this deal also became a. We’ve done almost, I think, 50,000 plus projects on environment on water, on sanitation, and then people are rewarded. People think it’s a complicated model, but it’s the easiest model because we don’t help people at all. You know, that’s the wrong word. We just stand with people, and we we we give a chance to people to explore themselves and take care of their own issues. And we are we just do the nudge part.

Nitin Bajaj

Anshu, those are massive numbers. 55,000,000 kilos, which a £110,000,000 just in 9 years. That’s phenomenal. That’s amazing. And to be able to touch those many lives and empower them. And as you said, you’re not doing a myth. It’s an oxymoron because you are showing people how they can be better versions of themselves. But at the same time, you’re just allowing them to find a new version. You’re not really sitting there and and just kind of working and help. It’s just kind of saying, look, you can do this. You have it in

Anshu Gupta

you. And Absolutely. You know, because I think what is going wrong, my opinion, is this entire concepts of, donor and beneficiary mindset.

Nitin Bajaj

Mhmm.

Anshu Gupta

I mean, we’ve been questioning that if I give time, I am a donor.

Nitin Bajaj

Mhmm.

Anshu Gupta

When the community gives time, how come they are beneficiaries?

Nitin Bajaj

I love that.

Anshu Gupta

If I if I if I, say, put in some money, k, I’m a donor. Mhmm. But when the community makes the bamboo bread and puts bamboo and labor, How come they’re beneficiaries? I mean, we all are bringing our own resources. And then this is happening. So I think what work in our case is that completely demolishing these stereotype concept of herbs and herb arts and, you know, donor and beneficiaries kind of thing. Even when you talk about haves and have nots, they might not be having some, some material asset. Right. But apart from they are they are not have nots. They have a skill. They have labor. They have grit. They know much more than us, in terms of innovations. Okay. I mean, we do it in the labs what they do in the field. Yes. I think we have just we have just taken this approach of a stakeholder. And the moment you say stakeholder, or if you do not make people a stakeholder, you are actually losing on on hands and brain. But when you make people a stakeholder, it’s a collective effort. I mean, as I as I always say that doing good is a collective responsibility. We all take care of that responsibility.

Nitin Bajaj

I love that. I I love that context. I love that setting that we are all in this together. It’s not, you know, I have something that you may not, but you have something that I may not. And that exchange is what elevates us and elevates the community. So we shouldn’t look at it in terms of the giver and the taker. It’s really how can I contribute and how can we all rise up and become better versions and bring a better tomorrow than we have today? Yeah. Love that. Absolutely. And should tell us about I mean, you you’ve seen a lot, and you’re knowing you and and having heard a lot of the work that has happened, I know that, Anshu, you have seen a lot. And by a lot, I mean, a lot of challenges, a lot of life. You’ve been there in the trenches, worked with people in the dirt. You’re not one of those founders that sits on the chair and and has a team out in the field. You’re in the field. Having seen everything that you have, what is the one big challenge that you would want to call out today?

Anshu Gupta

I think the the the growing inequality Mhmm. For for Sean. And the people who have as they as defined terms of the society, which I don’t agree. But people who have are having more. And and and, also, I think one of the biggest challenge I feel that we have not learned anything. COVID tried to tell us that all the big things fail and these small words. Right? Big hospitals were not that effective or not able to save people, then the small paracetamol or, you know, the gross and, given by a small not even called, an expert.

Nitin Bajaj

Mhmm.

Anshu Gupta

A small time health worker somewhere. Right? We never understood that the airports fail, but the small lobbies work. We never understood that this was the support people who were always called the blue collar or white collar or blue collar or whatever color. Yeah. They were people because of whom we survived. True. Right? So I think I I was hoping and, that this society will change, in a big way because this was one disaster, which was global disaster, which was, next to me to me. It happened with me. All of us went through that fear, that loss. There’s no one in the world who has not lost anyone. You know? Maybe either nearby or a little bit distant, somewhat. So that’s that’s a big challenge because I’m I’m just wondering that if Ulrich can teach us anything. You know? What will teach us? What will teach us respect? What will teach us trust? What will teach us, valuing the smallest possible thing in the world? You know? What will teach us value of the trees? So that that I always feel is a big challenge because going to just just a medium. Right? Going for me going for me is not the destination. Going happened, and and going to the part of journey. Going to the tool. Right? But where are you using this tool? In the in the middle of such huge arrogance? In the middle of, people who make decisions without listening to the people who make Nitin the middle of people who are not accepting that our intentions are good, but something failed. Mhmm. It’s important to relook into it. Well, I’m not demanding anything. Right? I’m just saying that I’m not doubting on intentions of us, the world, the so called.

Nitin Bajaj

Mhmm.

Anshu Gupta

I’m saying that it’s it did give us a chance to relook. It gives us it gave us a chance to sit silently and say something failed. We couldn’t save so many people. Ultimately, the farmers and this is a common statement I always make to make it a point that even in a country like India and many, many other parts of the world, farmers must have been nominated 8 1000, 10000, 15000 different variety of rice itself.

Nitin Bajaj

Mhmm.

Anshu Gupta

But you will still call farming on a skill. If it is not, I don’t know if it’s what?

Nitin Bajaj

Yes.

Anshu Gupta

Because of them, we all survived in the world.

Nitin Bajaj

Mhmm.

Anshu Gupta

Not because of the factories, but because of the farmers. But do we in the world, do we really value that? That’s the so for me, that’s one of the biggest challenge. I’m I’m just trying to see that in the, in the remaining years of life, what will happen? How how will it shape up? What will, what will be the trigger where some large scale change really, really happens? Nonpolitical, nonreligious. There are other ways of doing.

Nitin Bajaj

And I agree. And that’s that is a big question that we all need to answer ourselves is what will it take for us to really pause and introspect? Right? If such a massive crisis of our generation of our lifetime, we were we were all scared. There was fear, but that fear didn’t go deep enough. Right? And and to your point, it’s a very introspective question, and I never thought of it that way. Right? Yeah. Why do we call farmers unskilled? That’s such a core essential need for our survival. In fact, on the other extreme, if I were to build on that and say, it is the processed food that kills us. It’s not the natural one. Right

Anshu Gupta

1. So That’s cool. And if you see all across the globe, peoples and villages survive more than the cities.

Nitin Bajaj

Yes.

Anshu Gupta

Not just for India.

Nitin Bajaj

Yes. True. Now on the other side of challenges come opportunities. And as you’re thinking and guiding us through these hard hitting realities, I would love for you to share what’s that one big most exciting opportunity that brings a smile to you?

Anshu Gupta

Well, I see, I see a lot of this powerful youth happening in a in a big way. Right? And we all need to remember the thing that we and when we started, we were also exactly the same age. We are a student, but even that time, you know, we were we were also exactly in the same age. I I I see that that as a huge opportunity because, whatever people call about you well, I I know that youth unfortunately get a lot of negative remarks and the positive they deserve. Yeah. Because blaming them that they are always on mobile kind of thing. I mean, it’s part of life now. But and what I see, and especially when I and I I’ve seen it through my team, through hundreds of people with whom personally, we have been able to work or I’ve been able to work personally. I see a huge hope. I see that they’re aware. I see there is, they need to do something at a speed. They are they are coming up with lot of. They’re coming up with new ideas. They’re coming up with new innovations. And they do it with. They do it with funds, which is very important. Because one thing which I’ve been saying, you know, right from the beginning, that, by showing poverty on your face, you can’t remove the poverty. When I say poverty, I only talk about the economic poverty. 15 different ways kind of Mhmm. So you you see that you see that fun part. You see that music. Mhmm. So that that gives me a lot of yes. They need to be much more aware. They need to understand that, it is not their problem. I mean, outside the problem. It is their own problem also because we all want to live in a better world. They have the opportunity. They have the resources. They need to be a little bit more focused, more aware, and say that the time is now. We can’t wait for it. Fortunately, most of them and many of them are in a good position. Because if I talk about my father’s generation

Nitin Bajaj

Mhmm. They were

Anshu Gupta

in the survival mode. Right. They were in the middle somewhere. And these people, most of them are not in the survival mode. Their parents have taken good care of the in terms of education and assets. They’re in the growth mode. And if I grow personally in the entire world, we leave behind, it’s not good. Not at all. So that’s an opportunity. Little bit of correction tweaking Mhmm. If that happens and that happens at a speed. Because the time is now. I mean, if if you see Palestine, if you see Mhmm. If you see Afghanistan Anshu if you see Ukraine and what is happening, that that or or so many other natural disasters, not only human made. Mhmm. That that risk is also next door. You know? I think that also should bother us. That also should we should see as an opportunity that we are going through the worst time, you know, at least in in our life history. What happened in the past, I only read. I was not a part of it.

Nitin Bajaj

Right.

Anshu Gupta

But whatever I is there so I can’t say that, no, this is how society operates. It happened in past. So it must have happened. Maybe people must have tried to take care of it. But this is happening in my lifetime. Mhmm. But I am responsible for this. I need to respond to this.

Nitin Bajaj

You’re right. It’s it’s really up to us how we help the next generation navigate. They do have a good foundation. Whether we take credit for it or not, they do have a good foundation. How can we be there as coaches and mentors and not people who doubt them and create that negativity around, you know, we have devices and other things or the fact that they don’t have to come from that scarcity mindset because they have it better than we did and our our parents did. But how do we help them make the most of what we have so we can take it to the next level? I agree. And also to to your point about the natural and disasters that we have made, It is again to your previous point that’s that should be an awakening call for us. Right? What can we do and what can we do better from here? Because yeah. If we if we don’t take action and if we don’t change what is our reality, then it’ll keep getting worse.

Anshu Gupta

Yeah. And I think all these disasters, including COVID and these wars, have taught us that, disaster is not about some financially vulnerable or, you know, someone who’s socially backward

Nitin Bajaj

Right.

Anshu Gupta

Person. Because we always connect disaster with the people that they suffer. They are the victims kind of thing. Or every single disaster, what I just spoke about, these 3 2, 3 wars and this COVID.

Nitin Bajaj

Mhmm. It

Anshu Gupta

didn’t actually it didn’t actually tell every single person of whatever economics status. You must be owning a company, the best possible company in the Ukraine. Mhmm. And now, unfortunately, you are forced to be a refugee.

Nitin Bajaj

True. True. Anshu, one thing I really loved about what you said by using that example of you cannot remove poverty by looking poor. I’m a big believer in that. That you have to show and give hope and that’s where the transformation begins. And a lot of this work and a lot of these points that you touched upon are about paradigm shifts, are about making these big transformations. And to be able to do that, you have to show that change is possible, improvement is possible, and this is what it looks like. Like, there is happiness. There is joy. If if you’re trying to go to a a group that is that is dealing with sadness. So I’m a big believer of leading by example, and you’re a shining light on that. So wanted wanted to bring that back in perspective. Now as we look forward, I wanna take a moment and go back in time. Look at the rearview mirror and talk about 2 moments in your life and career. One where things did not work out as you had expected and it became a failure. And and to be better worded a lesson. And another example where things went beyond your imagination and it became a success to an extent that you hadn’t even expected it to be.

Anshu Gupta

Nitin one of the one of the constant failure even, we are in the process of failure already late

Nitin Bajaj

Mhmm.

Anshu Gupta

Is that, we have not been able to register this entire issue of clothing and material poverty. Mhmm. And so many other things which we which we do and where we have huge amount of proof of concept in a in a huge country like India, which is like a lab. And so if you if you do anything in even if 7, 8 states of India, is basically a replicable model anywhere in the world. So I think one of the failure, which I would say is the, we are not able to, pass it on to the world as as the better way, as the way forward, as not only the ideology, but the idea.

Nitin Bajaj

Mhmm.

Anshu Gupta

Or or the non issues which we’ve been talking about, you know, either get into the global agenda. Mhmm. And maybe, I’ll not justify it, but, we should have done it. For sure, it’s our moral responsibility also. That every single little success, must be out in the market so that people copy, replicate, you know, and and give it a local flavor. But I think it was, it was too overwhelming for us to sort out what we were doing and especially when we also entered in the disaster response spaces. But now this Goon 3.0, which we are saying, is all about replication and copy. And we’re saying that whatever we are doing, we’re doing. But, people need to copy. People need to replicate, and we need to stand with people to make sure that the copy happens, and it happens easily. So this was a failure. This has been a failure, but, we’re working on it. So maybe if we if we meet after a couple of years, we should be able to give some good experience.

Nitin Bajaj

But we’ll hold you accountable to it because I know you’re good for it. And, you know, before you talk about the success, I want to acknowledge that it’s it’s not easy for a leader to admit that this is what we did wrong, but it takes an even better person and a better leader to say this is how we are fixing it. And we have a road map for it, and we are on it right now. So really appreciate that. Thank you.

Anshu Gupta

Thank you. And, Alexis, I would say the, the entire response on, on COVID. And the fact that, half of our team come from those vulnerable background in terms of economy and all that. But not even as some single person has started walking on the road. I call it a big success, with lot of emotions. Mhmm. Because that is the story of trust. That is the story where not even a single person when when and, the relatives of those people were trying to go home. K. When they were losing jobs, when the entire COVID crisis happened. None of our team member really not even not even a peace rate was. Those in Kamal’s only happens at peace rate. Not even a single person got up and started or called us up to find out whether they are safe or not, whether, whether they will get their little bit of salaries or whatever. No one asked us. For me, that’s extremely emotional. Yes. For me for me, that is something which, I mean, I can come here and talk about I I I, but that’s all useless because there’s nothing like I. And this is a constant exercise that maybe I’ll tell you later. Mhmm. This is this is the result of we. We means not only the team, but hundreds of people around us. To build this space, which is the space of trust, which is the space of love, the space of care, and where people don’t just move out thinking that what will happen. Mhmm. For me, not only the operational part of COVID response. We did, and I think we did a okay job, to call kind of risk which we were supposed to. But more importantly, the the people part of it. That I call as access for sure. And and and and, importantly, we need to acknowledge that we are not we are not, like, big industry. Right? We don’t have reserves in our life. We don’t have bank loans or NPA nonperforming asset facilities. We are completely, dependent on on a small contributions of people.

Nitin Bajaj

No. I want to acknowledge that success. It’s huge because as you said, these people, the vulnerable population as as they’re called, which again, you know, I don’t agree with the labels, but so be it. So when we go down to the basics of food, shelter, and clothing, and your only means when you don’t have reserves has completely stopped, how can you continue to be selfless? Right? And that’s that’s a sign of success as a leader, as an organization, and as a human being. So congratulations to you and to your entire team for putting others first and being truly selfless because this is where the real person comes out. So again, hats off to you and your team for being there for each other, for really inspiring and showing what we truly means. Really appreciate that.

Anshu Gupta

Thank you, Anurag.

Nitin Bajaj

So before we go through the next questions, I wanna take a moment here and and ask you, how can we help? How can the audience? How can people that are watching and listening to this? What can they do to help?

Anshu Gupta

So I’ll go to a larger team. You know, when I was, leaving my job, in the private firm, I’ve done a very small calculation that, that, ideally, the fees should have been this month, and I paid only this month. And then I asked that if that fees was that much, was it possible for my bills to pay? And I the answer was no. And I’m sure they would have paid, but it would have been very, very tough. And it would have really impacted our life in many other ways. So that was the day almost like, I’m talking about 1998, when I was leaving job. I realized that I’m the biggest product of subsidy. Then I also realized that every single person who goes to a college Mhmm. Even even many of these private universities across the globe, not all my country. They’re really, really a huge part of it. K? And subsidy never comes from the government or or from the rich people.

Nitin Bajaj

Mhmm.

Anshu Gupta

Subsidy comes from the farmers and laborers. Again, the labeled vulnerable.

Nitin Bajaj

Yes.

Anshu Gupta

They they give subsidy to they’re never given fair prices. Imagine if a farmer starts getting, the daily wages, me and you will not be able to touch rice or and so don’t don’t even think of making dishes out of it. Mhmm. Cakes and all, but we will not be able to touch even this. Right? So that subsidy comes from that. And that 2020, the COVID crisis also proved that. That that me and you were enjoying life through Zoom and getting our own salaries and everything. But the people who made our houses are people who who have been feeding us from the road. Mhmm. So so my realization that we are the productive subsidy and, a lot of us were talking and listening also are the same category. So I’m not debating on whether we should get subsidy or not. That’s a huge issue. We’ll talk about it later. But one thing which is Sean is that me and you can pay back. Yes. Large number of population across the globe still need that kind of support, but me and you have come out of there. We can pay back. So my let’s my my simple message to the, audience is to take it as a debt. Mhmm. Take it as a. Don’t give back, pay back.

Nitin Bajaj

Yes.

Anshu Gupta

Okay? Pay Bajaj to whatever. Non religion, non politics, I would say. Because religion and politics are your personal thing. You end up giving whatever you want. Right. I’m talking about people. Give back to people. Give back to people with humility, not for a picture of a book. Right? Give back by keeping their dignity intact because dignity is not something you can give to people. Mhmm. Dignity is something which is a part of your soul. People are born with that. So don’t challenge that. Yes. Right? Just just make that make that happen because, if each one of us have something good, we live in a better society. So it’s be be selfish in doing good. You know? Because it it helps you. It helps me. It helps everyone. It doesn’t just support that person who you think need help. Even I need help. I need I need smiling faces around me. I when I move out, I do not want to, see injustice. Mhmm. I that injustice bothers me. Well, I mean, it it it distorts my dinner if nothing else. You know? If I see a sad face, someone begging, it bothers me. So I’m saying, let me be selfish. Let me do it for myself.

Nitin Bajaj

Very beautifully put. And, yes, we all need to appeal to ourselves. As you rightly said, pay Bajaj, not give. It’s not giving. We are paying back the debt we’ve acquired over the years, and we all have. So thank you for saying that. Now this is you know, you live a busy life. You have to travel. You have to travel to the innermost parts of India and then, of course, to other countries to talk about the work you and your team is doing. In between all of this and as a family person, you know, playing different roles and wearing different hats, what’s the one thing you do to de stress, to enjoy, to have fun, to maybe take a break if you ever do?

Anshu Gupta

A break? I don’t know. But yeah. I mean, of course, it happens, but, you know, I I love I love driving. And, favorite pastime, it’s, I mean, the street food, which fortunately, all 3 of us, me, my wife, we host cofounder, and daughter, 3 of us love. So the pani puri is the favorite pastime. Gullabas is the favorite pastime. We also, I think COVID taught us how to play UNO. We used to because we were confined and we’re too busy. We come out with this games of UNO and used to cheat each other in that game. You know? Yeah. I mean and that’s it. I I’m I’m trying to come back to the, to the hobby of music Mhmm. Listening and singing. I’m trying to come back. Let’s see how it how it happens.

Nitin Bajaj

You wanna give us a jalak?

Anshu Gupta

Man. I mean, maybe 2 years later.

Nitin Bajaj

Done. We’ll make a note of that. And then, of course, you’re also a writer and a photographer, so I’m sure you sneak out a little bit of time for those hobbies as well.

Anshu Gupta

I need to. I mean, that’s where I’m missing. I know that, that writing, gives me a lot of satisfaction. Mhmm. I also started writing majorly after COVID. I started writing something called COVID. Mhmm. Okay. Because because it but then I realized that after writing couple of big pieces, I realized that I’m actually coming up with lot of sadness and anger. And I don’t want an entire, book to become, you know, the the grand of this sadness and anger. And and I leave that in the history. No. I do not. So I stopped myself. That way, I said no. Because that time, that was the only thing which was coming out too. So but but I’ll complete that now that I have, Ivy. I have a lot of stories of great, a lot of the stories of love after that, during that. But I’m sure, complete that with remote time.

Nitin Bajaj

Okay. Another thing on our follow-up session to check-in on. K. Made a note of that. Now onto my favorite part of the show, would love to hear some one line life lessons from you, Anshu.

Anshu Gupta

I would say the first important thing is love it all. Okay? So be on it, that way. The second is that I will say there’s nothing like I. And I I personally do this because I think people like us have a have a chance that, anything goes in your head. K? So I’m not I I’m not into meditation. I’m not although people call me a switchable, but I don’t know how. I I I don’t practice anything. Right? But before sleeping, one thing I think which is really about with me, and that’s that’s a life lesson for me. A little bit, not one sentence, but a to be. And before sleeping, if you when I do it, even at 12 or 1, if I just spend a couple of minutes with me myself and say that how many times I’ve used I. And then you realize that 70% of that. Alright. Maybe more. More than 70%. And at 12 in the 9, you understand it’s all about and I often jokingly tell people that at least till 2 o’clock next day, you will have humility. After 2, you might you might be a again, but then at 12, you’ll be trash. You know? So that’s the life cycle for us. So that’s that’s an important life lesson. And then I always say that, you know, you have problems in volume. You need solutions in volume. You need people to solve those issues also in volume. There’s nothing like either or. It’s all about end. And then the last one I would say that, I mean, do us, never look for a logic. They just do it. But if you don’t want to do it, then you keep looking for logics not doing it. Who? This is getting to it. They fail, they succeed, they improve, they change. But they have that mindset of, like, you know, because those those are important. Those experiments are Because at the end of the day, they I think all of us have got one life. COVID also taught us that there’s no guarantee. With the best possible resources and the biggest possible buildings, we create for ourselves. You know? And the popularity we all create for ourselves. We might be the king and the whatever whatever. But one small invisible virus takes away everything from you. So live that life. And I often go to the colleges to talk and all, and I often promote the idea of bunking classes and leading engineering, but maybe playing guitar because you came in compulsion and pressure, and we will held you responsible because you wasted some resources. I also have been talking about it, you know, in my other session. But as an individual, you have to live your life. You know? If if playing guitar makes you happy, do that. Just one life.

Nitin Bajaj

Anshu, thank you so much for sharing your journey, your story, but more importantly for being you and doing what you do not as I as a we but leading that change leading an entire tribe an entire generation to do well, to be better versions, to be humans, and to acknowledge other humans and uplift the community. We really appreciate it. You are my hero, and thank you for inspiring me and continuing to motivate me. We really appreciate it.

Anshu Gupta

Thank you. Thank you so much, Nitin. Be on it.

Nitin Bajaj

Hey, everyone. Welcome to the industry show. I’m your host, Nitin Bajaj. And joining me today is Anshu Gupta. Anshu, welcome on the show.

Anshu Gupta

Thank you.

Nitin Bajaj

Great to have you here. Let’s start with who is Anshu?

Anshu Gupta

Oh, I think Anshu, Anshu is a dreamer, and Anshu is a a dreamer and a doer, not only a not only a thinker. And I would say Anshu has a lot of kiras. I mean, whatever you, call it. I wanted to be a wanted to be a writer, photographer. Correct. I’m continuing that, but not in that way. With some pieces, I keep doing it.

Nitin Bajaj

Love that. And I’ve gotten to know little parts of you. I’ve seen those stories, the Jalakoto stories that have come out. But I’ve what what I’ve seen and what I’ve been truly inspired by is your work on the ground, helping people, helping save lives. So tell us why you did this, why you started Goonj and what is Goonj. And you know we’ll talk a little bit about the impact the the work that you and the team have done over the years. But, yeah, please start with why did you start this thing and, tell us what Goonj is today.

Anshu Gupta

I think I think Goonj happened to me, because you come from a completely different background. I I did my journalism and masters in economics. And, all these, you know, like like, one of the life lesson for me personally is also, in India, I always say I mean, the what what you say in English now is that you whether you observe it or you just see it. So I think I’ve I I’ve been I’ve been blessed to, have the observing, for all. And that’s where you that’s where you came across the entire issue or rather the nonissue of clothing, that how clothing is completely ignored. Even when you talk about 3 basic need to say food, clothing, and jacket, but clothing is ignored. That’s how the journey started, to make sure that clothing becomes an issue, for the larger part of the population, not just the fashion statement, but, what are the need. Mhmm. And then it, because our lenses were of, dignity, because of, our own upbringing. So that’s how this entire concept of using this entire material. K. Log details, but we are doing anything and everything, which still has a life, which has we should not go to the landfill before completing its life cycle. Mhmm. On top of nonliving thing. Right. How do we convert that into a new currency, a new economy where people solve their problems? People dig well, make roads, hardcore water, sanitation environment, and infrastructure, and then they’re rewarded in kind. Mhmm. So it’s a it’s a new economy. Or it’s the revival of the water economy. But that’s what Moon does. A lot of people think that we are in the business of collecting and distributing clothes. They’re absolutely wrong. If I just pick up the, data of last 9 years, I just just on this 18th Feb, we completed over 25 years. Congratulations. Thank you. As good. We are now formally, we are there about 1,500 people in the Cognition. Anytime working on an average 20 plus states. I mean, in COVID, it even went up to 30 states and UTs. And if I pick up 9 years data, I think we have generalized just 9 years after 25 years. We have been able to channelize almost about 55,000,000 KGs of, material Wow. To the new motors part of the country, in a very new model where this deal also became a. We’ve done almost, I think, 50,000 plus projects on environment on water, on sanitation, and then people are rewarded. People think it’s a complicated model, but it’s the easiest model because we don’t help people at all. You know, that’s the wrong word. We just stand with people, and we we we give a chance to people to explore themselves and take care of their own issues. And we are we just do the nudge part.

Nitin Bajaj

Anshu, those are massive numbers. 55,000,000 kilos, which a £110,000,000 just in 9 years. That’s phenomenal. That’s amazing. And to be able to touch those many lives and empower them. And as you said, you’re not doing a myth. It’s an oxymoron because you are showing people how they can be better versions of themselves. But at the same time, you’re just allowing them to find a new version. You’re not really sitting there and and just kind of working and help. It’s just kind of saying, look, you can do this. You have it in

Anshu Gupta

you. And Absolutely. You know, because I think what is going wrong, my opinion, is this entire concepts of, donor and beneficiary mindset.

Nitin Bajaj

Mhmm.

Anshu Gupta

I mean, we’ve been questioning that if I give time, I am a donor.

Nitin Bajaj

Mhmm.

Anshu Gupta

When the community gives time, how come they are beneficiaries?

Nitin Bajaj

I love that.

Anshu Gupta

If I if I if I, say, put in some money, k, I’m a donor. Mhmm. But when the community makes the bamboo bread and puts bamboo and labor, How come they’re beneficiaries? I mean, we all are bringing our own resources. And then this is happening. So I think what work in our case is that completely demolishing these stereotype concept of herbs and herb arts and, you know, donor and beneficiaries kind of thing. Even when you talk about haves and have nots, they might not be having some, some material asset. Right. But apart from they are they are not have nots. They have a skill. They have labor. They have grit. They know much more than us, in terms of innovations. Okay. I mean, we do it in the labs what they do in the field. Yes. I think we have just we have just taken this approach of a stakeholder. And the moment you say stakeholder, or if you do not make people a stakeholder, you are actually losing on on hands and brain. But when you make people a stakeholder, it’s a collective effort. I mean, as I as I always say that doing good is a collective responsibility. We all take care of that responsibility.

Nitin Bajaj

I love that. I I love that context. I love that setting that we are all in this together. It’s not, you know, I have something that you may not, but you have something that I may not. And that exchange is what elevates us and elevates the community. So we shouldn’t look at it in terms of the giver and the taker. It’s really how can I contribute and how can we all rise up and become better versions and bring a better tomorrow than we have today? Yeah. Love that. Absolutely. And should tell us about I mean, you you’ve seen a lot, and you’re knowing you and and having heard a lot of the work that has happened, I know that, Anshu, you have seen a lot. And by a lot, I mean, a lot of challenges, a lot of life. You’ve been there in the trenches, worked with people in the dirt. You’re not one of those founders that sits on the chair and and has a team out in the field. You’re in the field. Having seen everything that you have, what is the one big challenge that you would want to call out today?

Anshu Gupta

I think the the the growing inequality Mhmm. For for Sean. And the people who have as they as defined terms of the society, which I don’t agree. But people who have are having more. And and and, also, I think one of the biggest challenge I feel that we have not learned anything. COVID tried to tell us that all the big things fail and these small words. Right? Big hospitals were not that effective or not able to save people, then the small paracetamol or, you know, the gross and, given by a small not even called, an expert.

Nitin Bajaj

Mhmm.

Anshu Gupta

A small time health worker somewhere. Right? We never understood that the airports fail, but the small lobbies work. We never understood that this was the support people who were always called the blue collar or white collar or blue collar or whatever color. Yeah. They were people because of whom we survived. True. Right? So I think I I was hoping and, that this society will change, in a big way because this was one disaster, which was global disaster, which was, next to me to me. It happened with me. All of us went through that fear, that loss. There’s no one in the world who has not lost anyone. You know? Maybe either nearby or a little bit distant, somewhat. So that’s that’s a big challenge because I’m I’m just wondering that if Ulrich can teach us anything. You know? What will teach us? What will teach us respect? What will teach us trust? What will teach us, valuing the smallest possible thing in the world? You know? What will teach us value of the trees? So that that I always feel is a big challenge because going to just just a medium. Right? Going for me going for me is not the destination. Going happened, and and going to the part of journey. Going to the tool. Right? But where are you using this tool? In the in the middle of such huge arrogance? In the middle of, people who make decisions without listening to the people who make Nitin the middle of people who are not accepting that our intentions are good, but something failed. Mhmm. It’s important to relook into it. Well, I’m not demanding anything. Right? I’m just saying that I’m not doubting on intentions of us, the world, the so called.

Nitin Bajaj

Mhmm.

Anshu Gupta

I’m saying that it’s it did give us a chance to relook. It gives us it gave us a chance to sit silently and say something failed. We couldn’t save so many people. Ultimately, the farmers and this is a common statement I always make to make it a point that even in a country like India and many, many other parts of the world, farmers must have been nominated 8 1000, 10000, 15000 different variety of rice itself.

Nitin Bajaj

Mhmm.

Anshu Gupta

But you will still call farming on a skill. If it is not, I don’t know if it’s what?

Nitin Bajaj

Yes.

Anshu Gupta

Because of them, we all survived in the world.

Nitin Bajaj

Mhmm.

Anshu Gupta

Not because of the factories, but because of the farmers. But do we in the world, do we really value that? That’s the so for me, that’s one of the biggest challenge. I’m I’m just trying to see that in the, in the remaining years of life, what will happen? How how will it shape up? What will, what will be the trigger where some large scale change really, really happens? Nonpolitical, nonreligious. There are other ways of doing.

Nitin Bajaj

And I agree. And that’s that is a big question that we all need to answer ourselves is what will it take for us to really pause and introspect? Right? If such a massive crisis of our generation of our lifetime, we were we were all scared. There was fear, but that fear didn’t go deep enough. Right? And and to your point, it’s a very introspective question, and I never thought of it that way. Right? Yeah. Why do we call farmers unskilled? That’s such a core essential need for our survival. In fact, on the other extreme, if I were to build on that and say, it is the processed food that kills us. It’s not the natural one. Right

Anshu Gupta

1. So That’s cool. And if you see all across the globe, peoples and villages survive more than the cities.

Nitin Bajaj

Yes.

Anshu Gupta

Not just for India.

Nitin Bajaj

Yes. True. Now on the other side of challenges come opportunities. And as you’re thinking and guiding us through these hard hitting realities, I would love for you to share what’s that one big most exciting opportunity that brings a smile to you?

Anshu Gupta

Well, I see, I see a lot of this powerful youth happening in a in a big way. Right? And we all need to remember the thing that we and when we started, we were also exactly the same age. We are a student, but even that time, you know, we were we were also exactly in the same age. I I I see that that as a huge opportunity because, whatever people call about you well, I I know that youth unfortunately get a lot of negative remarks and the positive they deserve. Yeah. Because blaming them that they are always on mobile kind of thing. I mean, it’s part of life now. But and what I see, and especially when I and I I’ve seen it through my team, through hundreds of people with whom personally, we have been able to work or I’ve been able to work personally. I see a huge hope. I see that they’re aware. I see there is, they need to do something at a speed. They are they are coming up with lot of. They’re coming up with new ideas. They’re coming up with new innovations. And they do it with. They do it with funds, which is very important. Because one thing which I’ve been saying, you know, right from the beginning, that, by showing poverty on your face, you can’t remove the poverty. When I say poverty, I only talk about the economic poverty. 15 different ways kind of Mhmm. So you you see that you see that fun part. You see that music. Mhmm. So that that gives me a lot of yes. They need to be much more aware. They need to understand that, it is not their problem. I mean, outside the problem. It is their own problem also because we all want to live in a better world. They have the opportunity. They have the resources. They need to be a little bit more focused, more aware, and say that the time is now. We can’t wait for it. Fortunately, most of them and many of them are in a good position. Because if I talk about my father’s generation

Nitin Bajaj

Mhmm. They were

Anshu Gupta

in the survival mode. Right. They were in the middle somewhere. And these people, most of them are not in the survival mode. Their parents have taken good care of the in terms of education and assets. They’re in the growth mode. And if I grow personally in the entire world, we leave behind, it’s not good. Not at all. So that’s an opportunity. Little bit of correction tweaking Mhmm. If that happens and that happens at a speed. Because the time is now. I mean, if if you see Palestine, if you see Mhmm. If you see Afghanistan Anshu if you see Ukraine and what is happening, that that or or so many other natural disasters, not only human made. Mhmm. That that risk is also next door. You know? I think that also should bother us. That also should we should see as an opportunity that we are going through the worst time, you know, at least in in our life history. What happened in the past, I only read. I was not a part of it.

Nitin Bajaj

Right.

Anshu Gupta

But whatever I is there so I can’t say that, no, this is how society operates. It happened in past. So it must have happened. Maybe people must have tried to take care of it. But this is happening in my lifetime. Mhmm. But I am responsible for this. I need to respond to this.

Nitin Bajaj

You’re right. It’s it’s really up to us how we help the next generation navigate. They do have a good foundation. Whether we take credit for it or not, they do have a good foundation. How can we be there as coaches and mentors and not people who doubt them and create that negativity around, you know, we have devices and other things or the fact that they don’t have to come from that scarcity mindset because they have it better than we did and our our parents did. But how do we help them make the most of what we have so we can take it to the next level? I agree. And also to to your point about the natural and disasters that we have made, It is again to your previous point that’s that should be an awakening call for us. Right? What can we do and what can we do better from here? Because yeah. If we if we don’t take action and if we don’t change what is our reality, then it’ll keep getting worse.

Anshu Gupta

Yeah. And I think all these disasters, including COVID and these wars, have taught us that, disaster is not about some financially vulnerable or, you know, someone who’s socially backward

Nitin Bajaj

Right.

Anshu Gupta

Person. Because we always connect disaster with the people that they suffer. They are the victims kind of thing. Or every single disaster, what I just spoke about, these 3 2, 3 wars and this COVID.

Nitin Bajaj

Mhmm. It

Anshu Gupta

didn’t actually it didn’t actually tell every single person of whatever economics status. You must be owning a company, the best possible company in the Ukraine. Mhmm. And now, unfortunately, you are forced to be a refugee.

Nitin Bajaj

True. True. Anshu, one thing I really loved about what you said by using that example of you cannot remove poverty by looking poor. I’m a big believer in that. That you have to show and give hope and that’s where the transformation begins. And a lot of this work and a lot of these points that you touched upon are about paradigm shifts, are about making these big transformations. And to be able to do that, you have to show that change is possible, improvement is possible, and this is what it looks like. Like, there is happiness. There is joy. If if you’re trying to go to a a group that is that is dealing with sadness. So I’m a big believer of leading by example, and you’re a shining light on that. So wanted wanted to bring that back in perspective. Now as we look forward, I wanna take a moment and go back in time. Look at the rearview mirror and talk about 2 moments in your life and career. One where things did not work out as you had expected and it became a failure. And and to be better worded a lesson. And another example where things went beyond your imagination and it became a success to an extent that you hadn’t even expected it to be.

Anshu Gupta

Nitin one of the one of the constant failure even, we are in the process of failure already late

Nitin Bajaj

Mhmm.

Anshu Gupta

Is that, we have not been able to register this entire issue of clothing and material poverty. Mhmm. And so many other things which we which we do and where we have huge amount of proof of concept in a in a huge country like India, which is like a lab. And so if you if you do anything in even if 7, 8 states of India, is basically a replicable model anywhere in the world. So I think one of the failure, which I would say is the, we are not able to, pass it on to the world as as the better way, as the way forward, as not only the ideology, but the idea.

Nitin Bajaj

Mhmm.

Anshu Gupta

Or or the non issues which we’ve been talking about, you know, either get into the global agenda. Mhmm. And maybe, I’ll not justify it, but, we should have done it. For sure, it’s our moral responsibility also. That every single little success, must be out in the market so that people copy, replicate, you know, and and give it a local flavor. But I think it was, it was too overwhelming for us to sort out what we were doing and especially when we also entered in the disaster response spaces. But now this Goon 3.0, which we are saying, is all about replication and copy. And we’re saying that whatever we are doing, we’re doing. But, people need to copy. People need to replicate, and we need to stand with people to make sure that the copy happens, and it happens easily. So this was a failure. This has been a failure, but, we’re working on it. So maybe if we if we meet after a couple of years, we should be able to give some good experience.

Nitin Bajaj

But we’ll hold you accountable to it because I know you’re good for it. And, you know, before you talk about the success, I want to acknowledge that it’s it’s not easy for a leader to admit that this is what we did wrong, but it takes an even better person and a better leader to say this is how we are fixing it. And we have a road map for it, and we are on it right now. So really appreciate that. Thank you.

Anshu Gupta

Thank you. And, Alexis, I would say the, the entire response on, on COVID. And the fact that, half of our team come from those vulnerable background in terms of economy and all that. But not even as some single person has started walking on the road. I call it a big success, with lot of emotions. Mhmm. Because that is the story of trust. That is the story where not even a single person when when and, the relatives of those people were trying to go home. K. When they were losing jobs, when the entire COVID crisis happened. None of our team member really not even not even a peace rate was. Those in Kamal’s only happens at peace rate. Not even a single person got up and started or called us up to find out whether they are safe or not, whether, whether they will get their little bit of salaries or whatever. No one asked us. For me, that’s extremely emotional. Yes. For me for me, that is something which, I mean, I can come here and talk about I I I, but that’s all useless because there’s nothing like I. And this is a constant exercise that maybe I’ll tell you later. Mhmm. This is this is the result of we. We means not only the team, but hundreds of people around us. To build this space, which is the space of trust, which is the space of love, the space of care, and where people don’t just move out thinking that what will happen. Mhmm. For me, not only the operational part of COVID response. We did, and I think we did a okay job, to call kind of risk which we were supposed to. But more importantly, the the people part of it. That I call as access for sure. And and and and, importantly, we need to acknowledge that we are not we are not, like, big industry. Right? We don’t have reserves in our life. We don’t have bank loans or NPA nonperforming asset facilities. We are completely, dependent on on a small contributions of people.

Nitin Bajaj

No. I want to acknowledge that success. It’s huge because as you said, these people, the vulnerable population as as they’re called, which again, you know, I don’t agree with the labels, but so be it. So when we go down to the basics of food, shelter, and clothing, and your only means when you don’t have reserves has completely stopped, how can you continue to be selfless? Right? And that’s that’s a sign of success as a leader, as an organization, and as a human being. So congratulations to you and to your entire team for putting others first and being truly selfless because this is where the real person comes out. So again, hats off to you and your team for being there for each other, for really inspiring and showing what we truly means. Really appreciate that.

Anshu Gupta

Thank you, Anurag.

Nitin Bajaj

So before we go through the next questions, I wanna take a moment here and and ask you, how can we help? How can the audience? How can people that are watching and listening to this? What can they do to help?

Anshu Gupta

So I’ll go to a larger team. You know, when I was, leaving my job, in the private firm, I’ve done a very small calculation that, that, ideally, the fees should have been this month, and I paid only this month. And then I asked that if that fees was that much, was it possible for my bills to pay? And I the answer was no. And I’m sure they would have paid, but it would have been very, very tough. And it would have really impacted our life in many other ways. So that was the day almost like, I’m talking about 1998, when I was leaving job. I realized that I’m the biggest product of subsidy. Then I also realized that every single person who goes to a college Mhmm. Even even many of these private universities across the globe, not all my country. They’re really, really a huge part of it. K? And subsidy never comes from the government or or from the rich people.

Nitin Bajaj

Mhmm.

Anshu Gupta

Subsidy comes from the farmers and laborers. Again, the labeled vulnerable.

Nitin Bajaj

Yes.

Anshu Gupta

They they give subsidy to they’re never given fair prices. Imagine if a farmer starts getting, the daily wages, me and you will not be able to touch rice or and so don’t don’t even think of making dishes out of it. Mhmm. Cakes and all, but we will not be able to touch even this. Right? So that subsidy comes from that. And that 2020, the COVID crisis also proved that. That that me and you were enjoying life through Zoom and getting our own salaries and everything. But the people who made our houses are people who who have been feeding us from the road. Mhmm. So so my realization that we are the productive subsidy and, a lot of us were talking and listening also are the same category. So I’m not debating on whether we should get subsidy or not. That’s a huge issue. We’ll talk about it later. But one thing which is Sean is that me and you can pay back. Yes. Large number of population across the globe still need that kind of support, but me and you have come out of there. We can pay back. So my let’s my my simple message to the, audience is to take it as a debt. Mhmm. Take it as a. Don’t give back, pay back.

Nitin Bajaj

Yes.

Anshu Gupta

Okay? Pay Bajaj to whatever. Non religion, non politics, I would say. Because religion and politics are your personal thing. You end up giving whatever you want. Right. I’m talking about people. Give back to people. Give back to people with humility, not for a picture of a book. Right? Give back by keeping their dignity intact because dignity is not something you can give to people. Mhmm. Dignity is something which is a part of your soul. People are born with that. So don’t challenge that. Yes. Right? Just just make that make that happen because, if each one of us have something good, we live in a better society. So it’s be be selfish in doing good. You know? Because it it helps you. It helps me. It helps everyone. It doesn’t just support that person who you think need help. Even I need help. I need I need smiling faces around me. I when I move out, I do not want to, see injustice. Mhmm. I that injustice bothers me. Well, I mean, it it it distorts my dinner if nothing else. You know? If I see a sad face, someone begging, it bothers me. So I’m saying, let me be selfish. Let me do it for myself.

Nitin Bajaj

Very beautifully put. And, yes, we all need to appeal to ourselves. As you rightly said, pay Bajaj, not give. It’s not giving. We are paying back the debt we’ve acquired over the years, and we all have. So thank you for saying that. Now this is you know, you live a busy life. You have to travel. You have to travel to the innermost parts of India and then, of course, to other countries to talk about the work you and your team is doing. In between all of this and as a family person, you know, playing different roles and wearing different hats, what’s the one thing you do to de stress, to enjoy, to have fun, to maybe take a break if you ever do?

Anshu Gupta

A break? I don’t know. But yeah. I mean, of course, it happens, but, you know, I I love I love driving. And, favorite pastime, it’s, I mean, the street food, which fortunately, all 3 of us, me, my wife, we host cofounder, and daughter, 3 of us love. So the pani puri is the favorite pastime. Gullabas is the favorite pastime. We also, I think COVID taught us how to play UNO. We used to because we were confined and we’re too busy. We come out with this games of UNO and used to cheat each other in that game. You know? Yeah. I mean and that’s it. I I’m I’m trying to come back to the, to the hobby of music Mhmm. Listening and singing. I’m trying to come back. Let’s see how it how it happens.

Nitin Bajaj

You wanna give us a jalak?

Anshu Gupta

Man. I mean, maybe 2 years later.

Nitin Bajaj

Done. We’ll make a note of that. And then, of course, you’re also a writer and a photographer, so I’m sure you sneak out a little bit of time for those hobbies as well.

Anshu Gupta

I need to. I mean, that’s where I’m missing. I know that, that writing, gives me a lot of satisfaction. Mhmm. I also started writing majorly after COVID. I started writing something called COVID. Mhmm. Okay. Because because it but then I realized that after writing couple of big pieces, I realized that I’m actually coming up with lot of sadness and anger. And I don’t want an entire, book to become, you know, the the grand of this sadness and anger. And and I leave that in the history. No. I do not. So I stopped myself. That way, I said no. Because that time, that was the only thing which was coming out too. So but but I’ll complete that now that I have, Ivy. I have a lot of stories of great, a lot of the stories of love after that, during that. But I’m sure, complete that with remote time.

Nitin Bajaj

Okay. Another thing on our follow-up session to check-in on. K. Made a note of that. Now onto my favorite part of the show, would love to hear some one line life lessons from you, Anshu.

Anshu Gupta

I would say the first important thing is love it all. Okay? So be on it, that way. The second is that I will say there’s nothing like I. And I I personally do this because I think people like us have a have a chance that, anything goes in your head. K? So I’m not I I’m not into meditation. I’m not although people call me a switchable, but I don’t know how. I I I don’t practice anything. Right? But before sleeping, one thing I think which is really about with me, and that’s that’s a life lesson for me. A little bit, not one sentence, but a to be. And before sleeping, if you when I do it, even at 12 or 1, if I just spend a couple of minutes with me myself and say that how many times I’ve used I. And then you realize that 70% of that. Alright. Maybe more. More than 70%. And at 12 in the 9, you understand it’s all about and I often jokingly tell people that at least till 2 o’clock next day, you will have humility. After 2, you might you might be a again, but then at 12, you’ll be trash. You know? So that’s the life cycle for us. So that’s that’s an important life lesson. And then I always say that, you know, you have problems in volume. You need solutions in volume. You need people to solve those issues also in volume. There’s nothing like either or. It’s all about end. And then the last one I would say that, I mean, do us, never look for a logic. They just do it. But if you don’t want to do it, then you keep looking for logics not doing it. Who? This is getting to it. They fail, they succeed, they improve, they change. But they have that mindset of, like, you know, because those those are important. Those experiments are Because at the end of the day, they I think all of us have got one life. COVID also taught us that there’s no guarantee. With the best possible resources and the biggest possible buildings, we create for ourselves. You know? And the popularity we all create for ourselves. We might be the king and the whatever whatever. But one small invisible virus takes away everything from you. So live that life. And I often go to the colleges to talk and all, and I often promote the idea of bunking classes and leading engineering, but maybe playing guitar because you came in compulsion and pressure, and we will held you responsible because you wasted some resources. I also have been talking about it, you know, in my other session. But as an individual, you have to live your life. You know? If if playing guitar makes you happy, do that. Just one life.

Nitin Bajaj

Anshu, thank you so much for sharing your journey, your story, but more importantly for being you and doing what you do not as I as a we but leading that change leading an entire tribe an entire generation to do well, to be better versions, to be humans, and to acknowledge other humans and uplift the community. We really appreciate it. You are my hero, and thank you for inspiring me and continuing to motivate me. We really appreciate it.

Anshu Gupta

Thank you. Thank you so much, Nitin. Be on it.

Nitin Bajaj

Hey, everyone. Welcome to the industry show. I’m your host, Nitin Bajaj. And joining me today is Anshu Gupta. Anshu, welcome on the show.

Anshu Gupta

Thank you.

Nitin Bajaj

Great to have you here. Let’s start with who is Anshu?

Anshu Gupta

Oh, I think Anshu, Anshu is a dreamer, and Anshu is a a dreamer and a doer, not only a not only a thinker. And I would say Anshu has a lot of kiras. I mean, whatever you, call it. I wanted to be a wanted to be a writer, photographer. Correct. I’m continuing that, but not in that way. With some pieces, I keep doing it.

Nitin Bajaj

Love that. And I’ve gotten to know little parts of you. I’ve seen those stories, the Jalakoto stories that have come out. But I’ve what what I’ve seen and what I’ve been truly inspired by is your work on the ground, helping people, helping save lives. So tell us why you did this, why you started Goonj and what is Goonj. And you know we’ll talk a little bit about the impact the the work that you and the team have done over the years. But, yeah, please start with why did you start this thing and, tell us what Goonj is today.

Anshu Gupta

I think I think Goonj happened to me, because you come from a completely different background. I I did my journalism and masters in economics. And, all these, you know, like like, one of the life lesson for me personally is also, in India, I always say I mean, the what what you say in English now is that you whether you observe it or you just see it. So I think I’ve I I’ve been I’ve been blessed to, have the observing, for all. And that’s where you that’s where you came across the entire issue or rather the nonissue of clothing, that how clothing is completely ignored. Even when you talk about 3 basic need to say food, clothing, and jacket, but clothing is ignored. That’s how the journey started, to make sure that clothing becomes an issue, for the larger part of the population, not just the fashion statement, but, what are the need. Mhmm. And then it, because our lenses were of, dignity, because of, our own upbringing. So that’s how this entire concept of using this entire material. K. Log details, but we are doing anything and everything, which still has a life, which has we should not go to the landfill before completing its life cycle. Mhmm. On top of nonliving thing. Right. How do we convert that into a new currency, a new economy where people solve their problems? People dig well, make roads, hardcore water, sanitation environment, and infrastructure, and then they’re rewarded in kind. Mhmm. So it’s a it’s a new economy. Or it’s the revival of the water economy. But that’s what Moon does. A lot of people think that we are in the business of collecting and distributing clothes. They’re absolutely wrong. If I just pick up the, data of last 9 years, I just just on this 18th Feb, we completed over 25 years. Congratulations. Thank you. As good. We are now formally, we are there about 1,500 people in the Cognition. Anytime working on an average 20 plus states. I mean, in COVID, it even went up to 30 states and UTs. And if I pick up 9 years data, I think we have generalized just 9 years after 25 years. We have been able to channelize almost about 55,000,000 KGs of, material Wow. To the new motors part of the country, in a very new model where this deal also became a. We’ve done almost, I think, 50,000 plus projects on environment on water, on sanitation, and then people are rewarded. People think it’s a complicated model, but it’s the easiest model because we don’t help people at all. You know, that’s the wrong word. We just stand with people, and we we we give a chance to people to explore themselves and take care of their own issues. And we are we just do the nudge part.

Nitin Bajaj

Anshu, those are massive numbers. 55,000,000 kilos, which a £110,000,000 just in 9 years. That’s phenomenal. That’s amazing. And to be able to touch those many lives and empower them. And as you said, you’re not doing a myth. It’s an oxymoron because you are showing people how they can be better versions of themselves. But at the same time, you’re just allowing them to find a new version. You’re not really sitting there and and just kind of working and help. It’s just kind of saying, look, you can do this. You have it in

Anshu Gupta

you. And Absolutely. You know, because I think what is going wrong, my opinion, is this entire concepts of, donor and beneficiary mindset.

Nitin Bajaj

Mhmm.

Anshu Gupta

I mean, we’ve been questioning that if I give time, I am a donor.

Nitin Bajaj

Mhmm.

Anshu Gupta

When the community gives time, how come they are beneficiaries?

Nitin Bajaj

I love that.

Anshu Gupta

If I if I if I, say, put in some money, k, I’m a donor. Mhmm. But when the community makes the bamboo bread and puts bamboo and labor, How come they’re beneficiaries? I mean, we all are bringing our own resources. And then this is happening. So I think what work in our case is that completely demolishing these stereotype concept of herbs and herb arts and, you know, donor and beneficiaries kind of thing. Even when you talk about haves and have nots, they might not be having some, some material asset. Right. But apart from they are they are not have nots. They have a skill. They have labor. They have grit. They know much more than us, in terms of innovations. Okay. I mean, we do it in the labs what they do in the field. Yes. I think we have just we have just taken this approach of a stakeholder. And the moment you say stakeholder, or if you do not make people a stakeholder, you are actually losing on on hands and brain. But when you make people a stakeholder, it’s a collective effort. I mean, as I as I always say that doing good is a collective responsibility. We all take care of that responsibility.

Nitin Bajaj

I love that. I I love that context. I love that setting that we are all in this together. It’s not, you know, I have something that you may not, but you have something that I may not. And that exchange is what elevates us and elevates the community. So we shouldn’t look at it in terms of the giver and the taker. It’s really how can I contribute and how can we all rise up and become better versions and bring a better tomorrow than we have today? Yeah. Love that. Absolutely. And should tell us about I mean, you you’ve seen a lot, and you’re knowing you and and having heard a lot of the work that has happened, I know that, Anshu, you have seen a lot. And by a lot, I mean, a lot of challenges, a lot of life. You’ve been there in the trenches, worked with people in the dirt. You’re not one of those founders that sits on the chair and and has a team out in the field. You’re in the field. Having seen everything that you have, what is the one big challenge that you would want to call out today?

Anshu Gupta

I think the the the growing inequality Mhmm. For for Sean. And the people who have as they as defined terms of the society, which I don’t agree. But people who have are having more. And and and, also, I think one of the biggest challenge I feel that we have not learned anything. COVID tried to tell us that all the big things fail and these small words. Right? Big hospitals were not that effective or not able to save people, then the small paracetamol or, you know, the gross and, given by a small not even called, an expert.

Nitin Bajaj

Mhmm.

Anshu Gupta

A small time health worker somewhere. Right? We never understood that the airports fail, but the small lobbies work. We never understood that this was the support people who were always called the blue collar or white collar or blue collar or whatever color. Yeah. They were people because of whom we survived. True. Right? So I think I I was hoping and, that this society will change, in a big way because this was one disaster, which was global disaster, which was, next to me to me. It happened with me. All of us went through that fear, that loss. There’s no one in the world who has not lost anyone. You know? Maybe either nearby or a little bit distant, somewhat. So that’s that’s a big challenge because I’m I’m just wondering that if Ulrich can teach us anything. You know? What will teach us? What will teach us respect? What will teach us trust? What will teach us, valuing the smallest possible thing in the world? You know? What will teach us value of the trees? So that that I always feel is a big challenge because going to just just a medium. Right? Going for me going for me is not the destination. Going happened, and and going to the part of journey. Going to the tool. Right? But where are you using this tool? In the in the middle of such huge arrogance? In the middle of, people who make decisions without listening to the people who make Nitin the middle of people who are not accepting that our intentions are good, but something failed. Mhmm. It’s important to relook into it. Well, I’m not demanding anything. Right? I’m just saying that I’m not doubting on intentions of us, the world, the so called.

Nitin Bajaj

Mhmm.

Anshu Gupta

I’m saying that it’s it did give us a chance to relook. It gives us it gave us a chance to sit silently and say something failed. We couldn’t save so many people. Ultimately, the farmers and this is a common statement I always make to make it a point that even in a country like India and many, many other parts of the world, farmers must have been nominated 8 1000, 10000, 15000 different variety of rice itself.

Nitin Bajaj

Mhmm.

Anshu Gupta

But you will still call farming on a skill. If it is not, I don’t know if it’s what?

Nitin Bajaj

Yes.

Anshu Gupta

Because of them, we all survived in the world.

Nitin Bajaj

Mhmm.

Anshu Gupta

Not because of the factories, but because of the farmers. But do we in the world, do we really value that? That’s the so for me, that’s one of the biggest challenge. I’m I’m just trying to see that in the, in the remaining years of life, what will happen? How how will it shape up? What will, what will be the trigger where some large scale change really, really happens? Nonpolitical, nonreligious. There are other ways of doing.

Nitin Bajaj

And I agree. And that’s that is a big question that we all need to answer ourselves is what will it take for us to really pause and introspect? Right? If such a massive crisis of our generation of our lifetime, we were we were all scared. There was fear, but that fear didn’t go deep enough. Right? And and to your point, it’s a very introspective question, and I never thought of it that way. Right? Yeah. Why do we call farmers unskilled? That’s such a core essential need for our survival. In fact, on the other extreme, if I were to build on that and say, it is the processed food that kills us. It’s not the natural one. Right

Anshu Gupta

1. So That’s cool. And if you see all across the globe, peoples and villages survive more than the cities.

Nitin Bajaj

Yes.

Anshu Gupta

Not just for India.

Nitin Bajaj

Yes. True. Now on the other side of challenges come opportunities. And as you’re thinking and guiding us through these hard hitting realities, I would love for you to share what’s that one big most exciting opportunity that brings a smile to you?

Anshu Gupta

Well, I see, I see a lot of this powerful youth happening in a in a big way. Right? And we all need to remember the thing that we and when we started, we were also exactly the same age. We are a student, but even that time, you know, we were we were also exactly in the same age. I I I see that that as a huge opportunity because, whatever people call about you well, I I know that youth unfortunately get a lot of negative remarks and the positive they deserve. Yeah. Because blaming them that they are always on mobile kind of thing. I mean, it’s part of life now. But and what I see, and especially when I and I I’ve seen it through my team, through hundreds of people with whom personally, we have been able to work or I’ve been able to work personally. I see a huge hope. I see that they’re aware. I see there is, they need to do something at a speed. They are they are coming up with lot of. They’re coming up with new ideas. They’re coming up with new innovations. And they do it with. They do it with funds, which is very important. Because one thing which I’ve been saying, you know, right from the beginning, that, by showing poverty on your face, you can’t remove the poverty. When I say poverty, I only talk about the economic poverty. 15 different ways kind of Mhmm. So you you see that you see that fun part. You see that music. Mhmm. So that that gives me a lot of yes. They need to be much more aware. They need to understand that, it is not their problem. I mean, outside the problem. It is their own problem also because we all want to live in a better world. They have the opportunity. They have the resources. They need to be a little bit more focused, more aware, and say that the time is now. We can’t wait for it. Fortunately, most of them and many of them are in a good position. Because if I talk about my father’s generation

Nitin Bajaj

Mhmm. They were

Anshu Gupta

in the survival mode. Right. They were in the middle somewhere. And these people, most of them are not in the survival mode. Their parents have taken good care of the in terms of education and assets. They’re in the growth mode. And if I grow personally in the entire world, we leave behind, it’s not good. Not at all. So that’s an opportunity. Little bit of correction tweaking Mhmm. If that happens and that happens at a speed. Because the time is now. I mean, if if you see Palestine, if you see Mhmm. If you see Afghanistan Anshu if you see Ukraine and what is happening, that that or or so many other natural disasters, not only human made. Mhmm. That that risk is also next door. You know? I think that also should bother us. That also should we should see as an opportunity that we are going through the worst time, you know, at least in in our life history. What happened in the past, I only read. I was not a part of it.

Nitin Bajaj

Right.

Anshu Gupta

But whatever I is there so I can’t say that, no, this is how society operates. It happened in past. So it must have happened. Maybe people must have tried to take care of it. But this is happening in my lifetime. Mhmm. But I am responsible for this. I need to respond to this.

Nitin Bajaj

You’re right. It’s it’s really up to us how we help the next generation navigate. They do have a good foundation. Whether we take credit for it or not, they do have a good foundation. How can we be there as coaches and mentors and not people who doubt them and create that negativity around, you know, we have devices and other things or the fact that they don’t have to come from that scarcity mindset because they have it better than we did and our our parents did. But how do we help them make the most of what we have so we can take it to the next level? I agree. And also to to your point about the natural and disasters that we have made, It is again to your previous point that’s that should be an awakening call for us. Right? What can we do and what can we do better from here? Because yeah. If we if we don’t take action and if we don’t change what is our reality, then it’ll keep getting worse.

Anshu Gupta

Yeah. And I think all these disasters, including COVID and these wars, have taught us that, disaster is not about some financially vulnerable or, you know, someone who’s socially backward

Nitin Bajaj

Right.

Anshu Gupta

Person. Because we always connect disaster with the people that they suffer. They are the victims kind of thing. Or every single disaster, what I just spoke about, these 3 2, 3 wars and this COVID.

Nitin Bajaj

Mhmm. It

Anshu Gupta

didn’t actually it didn’t actually tell every single person of whatever economics status. You must be owning a company, the best possible company in the Ukraine. Mhmm. And now, unfortunately, you are forced to be a refugee.

Nitin Bajaj

True. True. Anshu, one thing I really loved about what you said by using that example of you cannot remove poverty by looking poor. I’m a big believer in that. That you have to show and give hope and that’s where the transformation begins. And a lot of this work and a lot of these points that you touched upon are about paradigm shifts, are about making these big transformations. And to be able to do that, you have to show that change is possible, improvement is possible, and this is what it looks like. Like, there is happiness. There is joy. If if you’re trying to go to a a group that is that is dealing with sadness. So I’m a big believer of leading by example, and you’re a shining light on that. So wanted wanted to bring that back in perspective. Now as we look forward, I wanna take a moment and go back in time. Look at the rearview mirror and talk about 2 moments in your life and career. One where things did not work out as you had expected and it became a failure. And and to be better worded a lesson. And another example where things went beyond your imagination and it became a success to an extent that you hadn’t even expected it to be.

Anshu Gupta

Nitin one of the one of the constant failure even, we are in the process of failure already late

Nitin Bajaj

Mhmm.

Anshu Gupta

Is that, we have not been able to register this entire issue of clothing and material poverty. Mhmm. And so many other things which we which we do and where we have huge amount of proof of concept in a in a huge country like India, which is like a lab. And so if you if you do anything in even if 7, 8 states of India, is basically a replicable model anywhere in the world. So I think one of the failure, which I would say is the, we are not able to, pass it on to the world as as the better way, as the way forward, as not only the ideology, but the idea.

Nitin Bajaj

Mhmm.

Anshu Gupta

Or or the non issues which we’ve been talking about, you know, either get into the global agenda. Mhmm. And maybe, I’ll not justify it, but, we should have done it. For sure, it’s our moral responsibility also. That every single little success, must be out in the market so that people copy, replicate, you know, and and give it a local flavor. But I think it was, it was too overwhelming for us to sort out what we were doing and especially when we also entered in the disaster response spaces. But now this Goon 3.0, which we are saying, is all about replication and copy. And we’re saying that whatever we are doing, we’re doing. But, people need to copy. People need to replicate, and we need to stand with people to make sure that the copy happens, and it happens easily. So this was a failure. This has been a failure, but, we’re working on it. So maybe if we if we meet after a couple of years, we should be able to give some good experience.

Nitin Bajaj

But we’ll hold you accountable to it because I know you’re good for it. And, you know, before you talk about the success, I want to acknowledge that it’s it’s not easy for a leader to admit that this is what we did wrong, but it takes an even better person and a better leader to say this is how we are fixing it. And we have a road map for it, and we are on it right now. So really appreciate that. Thank you.

Anshu Gupta

Thank you. And, Alexis, I would say the, the entire response on, on COVID. And the fact that, half of our team come from those vulnerable background in terms of economy and all that. But not even as some single person has started walking on the road. I call it a big success, with lot of emotions. Mhmm. Because that is the story of trust. That is the story where not even a single person when when and, the relatives of those people were trying to go home. K. When they were losing jobs, when the entire COVID crisis happened. None of our team member really not even not even a peace rate was. Those in Kamal’s only happens at peace rate. Not even a single person got up and started or called us up to find out whether they are safe or not, whether, whether they will get their little bit of salaries or whatever. No one asked us. For me, that’s extremely emotional. Yes. For me for me, that is something which, I mean, I can come here and talk about I I I, but that’s all useless because there’s nothing like I. And this is a constant exercise that maybe I’ll tell you later. Mhmm. This is this is the result of we. We means not only the team, but hundreds of people around us. To build this space, which is the space of trust, which is the space of love, the space of care, and where people don’t just move out thinking that what will happen. Mhmm. For me, not only the operational part of COVID response. We did, and I think we did a okay job, to call kind of risk which we were supposed to. But more importantly, the the people part of it. That I call as access for sure. And and and and, importantly, we need to acknowledge that we are not we are not, like, big industry. Right? We don’t have reserves in our life. We don’t have bank loans or NPA nonperforming asset facilities. We are completely, dependent on on a small contributions of people.

Nitin Bajaj

No. I want to acknowledge that success. It’s huge because as you said, these people, the vulnerable population as as they’re called, which again, you know, I don’t agree with the labels, but so be it. So when we go down to the basics of food, shelter, and clothing, and your only means when you don’t have reserves has completely stopped, how can you continue to be selfless? Right? And that’s that’s a sign of success as a leader, as an organization, and as a human being. So congratulations to you and to your entire team for putting others first and being truly selfless because this is where the real person comes out. So again, hats off to you and your team for being there for each other, for really inspiring and showing what we truly means. Really appreciate that.

Anshu Gupta

Thank you, Anurag.

Nitin Bajaj

So before we go through the next questions, I wanna take a moment here and and ask you, how can we help? How can the audience? How can people that are watching and listening to this? What can they do to help?

Anshu Gupta

So I’ll go to a larger team. You know, when I was, leaving my job, in the private firm, I’ve done a very small calculation that, that, ideally, the fees should have been this month, and I paid only this month. And then I asked that if that fees was that much, was it possible for my bills to pay? And I the answer was no. And I’m sure they would have paid, but it would have been very, very tough. And it would have really impacted our life in many other ways. So that was the day almost like, I’m talking about 1998, when I was leaving job. I realized that I’m the biggest product of subsidy. Then I also realized that every single person who goes to a college Mhmm. Even even many of these private universities across the globe, not all my country. They’re really, really a huge part of it. K? And subsidy never comes from the government or or from the rich people.

Nitin Bajaj

Mhmm.

Anshu Gupta

Subsidy comes from the farmers and laborers. Again, the labeled vulnerable.

Nitin Bajaj

Yes.

Anshu Gupta

They they give subsidy to they’re never given fair prices. Imagine if a farmer starts getting, the daily wages, me and you will not be able to touch rice or and so don’t don’t even think of making dishes out of it. Mhmm. Cakes and all, but we will not be able to touch even this. Right? So that subsidy comes from that. And that 2020, the COVID crisis also proved that. That that me and you were enjoying life through Zoom and getting our own salaries and everything. But the people who made our houses are people who who have been feeding us from the road. Mhmm. So so my realization that we are the productive subsidy and, a lot of us were talking and listening also are the same category. So I’m not debating on whether we should get subsidy or not. That’s a huge issue. We’ll talk about it later. But one thing which is Sean is that me and you can pay back. Yes. Large number of population across the globe still need that kind of support, but me and you have come out of there. We can pay back. So my let’s my my simple message to the, audience is to take it as a debt. Mhmm. Take it as a. Don’t give back, pay back.

Nitin Bajaj

Yes.

Anshu Gupta

Okay? Pay Bajaj to whatever. Non religion, non politics, I would say. Because religion and politics are your personal thing. You end up giving whatever you want. Right. I’m talking about people. Give back to people. Give back to people with humility, not for a picture of a book. Right? Give back by keeping their dignity intact because dignity is not something you can give to people. Mhmm. Dignity is something which is a part of your soul. People are born with that. So don’t challenge that. Yes. Right? Just just make that make that happen because, if each one of us have something good, we live in a better society. So it’s be be selfish in doing good. You know? Because it it helps you. It helps me. It helps everyone. It doesn’t just support that person who you think need help. Even I need help. I need I need smiling faces around me. I when I move out, I do not want to, see injustice. Mhmm. I that injustice bothers me. Well, I mean, it it it distorts my dinner if nothing else. You know? If I see a sad face, someone begging, it bothers me. So I’m saying, let me be selfish. Let me do it for myself.

Nitin Bajaj

Very beautifully put. And, yes, we all need to appeal to ourselves. As you rightly said, pay Bajaj, not give. It’s not giving. We are paying back the debt we’ve acquired over the years, and we all have. So thank you for saying that. Now this is you know, you live a busy life. You have to travel. You have to travel to the innermost parts of India and then, of course, to other countries to talk about the work you and your team is doing. In between all of this and as a family person, you know, playing different roles and wearing different hats, what’s the one thing you do to de stress, to enjoy, to have fun, to maybe take a break if you ever do?

Anshu Gupta

A break? I don’t know. But yeah. I mean, of course, it happens, but, you know, I I love I love driving. And, favorite pastime, it’s, I mean, the street food, which fortunately, all 3 of us, me, my wife, we host cofounder, and daughter, 3 of us love. So the pani puri is the favorite pastime. Gullabas is the favorite pastime. We also, I think COVID taught us how to play UNO. We used to because we were confined and we’re too busy. We come out with this games of UNO and used to cheat each other in that game. You know? Yeah. I mean and that’s it. I I’m I’m trying to come back to the, to the hobby of music Mhmm. Listening and singing. I’m trying to come back. Let’s see how it how it happens.

Nitin Bajaj

You wanna give us a jalak?

Anshu Gupta

Man. I mean, maybe 2 years later.

Nitin Bajaj

Done. We’ll make a note of that. And then, of course, you’re also a writer and a photographer, so I’m sure you sneak out a little bit of time for those hobbies as well.

Anshu Gupta

I need to. I mean, that’s where I’m missing. I know that, that writing, gives me a lot of satisfaction. Mhmm. I also started writing majorly after COVID. I started writing something called COVID. Mhmm. Okay. Because because it but then I realized that after writing couple of big pieces, I realized that I’m actually coming up with lot of sadness and anger. And I don’t want an entire, book to become, you know, the the grand of this sadness and anger. And and I leave that in the history. No. I do not. So I stopped myself. That way, I said no. Because that time, that was the only thing which was coming out too. So but but I’ll complete that now that I have, Ivy. I have a lot of stories of great, a lot of the stories of love after that, during that. But I’m sure, complete that with remote time.

Nitin Bajaj

Okay. Another thing on our follow-up session to check-in on. K. Made a note of that. Now onto my favorite part of the show, would love to hear some one line life lessons from you, Anshu.

Anshu Gupta

I would say the first important thing is love it all. Okay? So be on it, that way. The second is that I will say there’s nothing like I. And I I personally do this because I think people like us have a have a chance that, anything goes in your head. K? So I’m not I I’m not into meditation. I’m not although people call me a switchable, but I don’t know how. I I I don’t practice anything. Right? But before sleeping, one thing I think which is really about with me, and that’s that’s a life lesson for me. A little bit, not one sentence, but a to be. And before sleeping, if you when I do it, even at 12 or 1, if I just spend a couple of minutes with me myself and say that how many times I’ve used I. And then you realize that 70% of that. Alright. Maybe more. More than 70%. And at 12 in the 9, you understand it’s all about and I often jokingly tell people that at least till 2 o’clock next day, you will have humility. After 2, you might you might be a again, but then at 12, you’ll be trash. You know? So that’s the life cycle for us. So that’s that’s an important life lesson. And then I always say that, you know, you have problems in volume. You need solutions in volume. You need people to solve those issues also in volume. There’s nothing like either or. It’s all about end. And then the last one I would say that, I mean, do us, never look for a logic. They just do it. But if you don’t want to do it, then you keep looking for logics not doing it. Who? This is getting to it. They fail, they succeed, they improve, they change. But they have that mindset of, like, you know, because those those are important. Those experiments are Because at the end of the day, they I think all of us have got one life. COVID also taught us that there’s no guarantee. With the best possible resources and the biggest possible buildings, we create for ourselves. You know? And the popularity we all create for ourselves. We might be the king and the whatever whatever. But one small invisible virus takes away everything from you. So live that life. And I often go to the colleges to talk and all, and I often promote the idea of bunking classes and leading engineering, but maybe playing guitar because you came in compulsion and pressure, and we will held you responsible because you wasted some resources. I also have been talking about it, you know, in my other session. But as an individual, you have to live your life. You know? If if playing guitar makes you happy, do that. Just one life.

Nitin Bajaj

Anshu, thank you so much for sharing your journey, your story, but more importantly for being you and doing what you do not as I as a we but leading that change leading an entire tribe an entire generation to do well, to be better versions, to be humans, and to acknowledge other humans and uplift the community. We really appreciate it. You are my hero, and thank you for inspiring me and continuing to motivate me. We really appreciate it.

Anshu Gupta

Thank you. Thank you so much, Nitin. Be on it.

Nitin Bajaj

Hey, everyone. Welcome to the industry show. I’m your host, Nitin Bajaj. And joining me today is Anshu Gupta. Anshu, welcome on the show.

Anshu Gupta

Thank you.

Nitin Bajaj

Great to have you here. Let’s start with who is Anshu?

Anshu Gupta

Oh, I think Anshu, Anshu is a dreamer, and Anshu is a a dreamer and a doer, not only a not only a thinker. And I would say Anshu has a lot of kiras. I mean, whatever you, call it. I wanted to be a wanted to be a writer, photographer. Correct. I’m continuing that, but not in that way. With some pieces, I keep doing it.

Nitin Bajaj

Love that. And I’ve gotten to know little parts of you. I’ve seen those stories, the Jalakoto stories that have come out. But I’ve what what I’ve seen and what I’ve been truly inspired by is your work on the ground, helping people, helping save lives. So tell us why you did this, why you started Goonj and what is Goonj. And you know we’ll talk a little bit about the impact the the work that you and the team have done over the years. But, yeah, please start with why did you start this thing and, tell us what Goonj is today.

Anshu Gupta

I think I think Goonj happened to me, because you come from a completely different background. I I did my journalism and masters in economics. And, all these, you know, like like, one of the life lesson for me personally is also, in India, I always say I mean, the what what you say in English now is that you whether you observe it or you just see it. So I think I’ve I I’ve been I’ve been blessed to, have the observing, for all. And that’s where you that’s where you came across the entire issue or rather the nonissue of clothing, that how clothing is completely ignored. Even when you talk about 3 basic need to say food, clothing, and jacket, but clothing is ignored. That’s how the journey started, to make sure that clothing becomes an issue, for the larger part of the population, not just the fashion statement, but, what are the need. Mhmm. And then it, because our lenses were of, dignity, because of, our own upbringing. So that’s how this entire concept of using this entire material. K. Log details, but we are doing anything and everything, which still has a life, which has we should not go to the landfill before completing its life cycle. Mhmm. On top of nonliving thing. Right. How do we convert that into a new currency, a new economy where people solve their problems? People dig well, make roads, hardcore water, sanitation environment, and infrastructure, and then they’re rewarded in kind. Mhmm. So it’s a it’s a new economy. Or it’s the revival of the water economy. But that’s what Moon does. A lot of people think that we are in the business of collecting and distributing clothes. They’re absolutely wrong. If I just pick up the, data of last 9 years, I just just on this 18th Feb, we completed over 25 years. Congratulations. Thank you. As good. We are now formally, we are there about 1,500 people in the Cognition. Anytime working on an average 20 plus states. I mean, in COVID, it even went up to 30 states and UTs. And if I pick up 9 years data, I think we have generalized just 9 years after 25 years. We have been able to channelize almost about 55,000,000 KGs of, material Wow. To the new motors part of the country, in a very new model where this deal also became a. We’ve done almost, I think, 50,000 plus projects on environment on water, on sanitation, and then people are rewarded. People think it’s a complicated model, but it’s the easiest model because we don’t help people at all. You know, that’s the wrong word. We just stand with people, and we we we give a chance to people to explore themselves and take care of their own issues. And we are we just do the nudge part.

Nitin Bajaj

Anshu, those are massive numbers. 55,000,000 kilos, which a £110,000,000 just in 9 years. That’s phenomenal. That’s amazing. And to be able to touch those many lives and empower them. And as you said, you’re not doing a myth. It’s an oxymoron because you are showing people how they can be better versions of themselves. But at the same time, you’re just allowing them to find a new version. You’re not really sitting there and and just kind of working and help. It’s just kind of saying, look, you can do this. You have it in

Anshu Gupta

you. And Absolutely. You know, because I think what is going wrong, my opinion, is this entire concepts of, donor and beneficiary mindset.

Nitin Bajaj

Mhmm.

Anshu Gupta

I mean, we’ve been questioning that if I give time, I am a donor.

Nitin Bajaj

Mhmm.

Anshu Gupta

When the community gives time, how come they are beneficiaries?

Nitin Bajaj

I love that.

Anshu Gupta

If I if I if I, say, put in some money, k, I’m a donor. Mhmm. But when the community makes the bamboo bread and puts bamboo and labor, How come they’re beneficiaries? I mean, we all are bringing our own resources. And then this is happening. So I think what work in our case is that completely demolishing these stereotype concept of herbs and herb arts and, you know, donor and beneficiaries kind of thing. Even when you talk about haves and have nots, they might not be having some, some material asset. Right. But apart from they are they are not have nots. They have a skill. They have labor. They have grit. They know much more than us, in terms of innovations. Okay. I mean, we do it in the labs what they do in the field. Yes. I think we have just we have just taken this approach of a stakeholder. And the moment you say stakeholder, or if you do not make people a stakeholder, you are actually losing on on hands and brain. But when you make people a stakeholder, it’s a collective effort. I mean, as I as I always say that doing good is a collective responsibility. We all take care of that responsibility.

Nitin Bajaj

I love that. I I love that context. I love that setting that we are all in this together. It’s not, you know, I have something that you may not, but you have something that I may not. And that exchange is what elevates us and elevates the community. So we shouldn’t look at it in terms of the giver and the taker. It’s really how can I contribute and how can we all rise up and become better versions and bring a better tomorrow than we have today? Yeah. Love that. Absolutely. And should tell us about I mean, you you’ve seen a lot, and you’re knowing you and and having heard a lot of the work that has happened, I know that, Anshu, you have seen a lot. And by a lot, I mean, a lot of challenges, a lot of life. You’ve been there in the trenches, worked with people in the dirt. You’re not one of those founders that sits on the chair and and has a team out in the field. You’re in the field. Having seen everything that you have, what is the one big challenge that you would want to call out today?

Anshu Gupta

I think the the the growing inequality Mhmm. For for Sean. And the people who have as they as defined terms of the society, which I don’t agree. But people who have are having more. And and and, also, I think one of the biggest challenge I feel that we have not learned anything. COVID tried to tell us that all the big things fail and these small words. Right? Big hospitals were not that effective or not able to save people, then the small paracetamol or, you know, the gross and, given by a small not even called, an expert.

Nitin Bajaj

Mhmm.

Anshu Gupta

A small time health worker somewhere. Right? We never understood that the airports fail, but the small lobbies work. We never understood that this was the support people who were always called the blue collar or white collar or blue collar or whatever color. Yeah. They were people because of whom we survived. True. Right? So I think I I was hoping and, that this society will change, in a big way because this was one disaster, which was global disaster, which was, next to me to me. It happened with me. All of us went through that fear, that loss. There’s no one in the world who has not lost anyone. You know? Maybe either nearby or a little bit distant, somewhat. So that’s that’s a big challenge because I’m I’m just wondering that if Ulrich can teach us anything. You know? What will teach us? What will teach us respect? What will teach us trust? What will teach us, valuing the smallest possible thing in the world? You know? What will teach us value of the trees? So that that I always feel is a big challenge because going to just just a medium. Right? Going for me going for me is not the destination. Going happened, and and going to the part of journey. Going to the tool. Right? But where are you using this tool? In the in the middle of such huge arrogance? In the middle of, people who make decisions without listening to the people who make Nitin the middle of people who are not accepting that our intentions are good, but something failed. Mhmm. It’s important to relook into it. Well, I’m not demanding anything. Right? I’m just saying that I’m not doubting on intentions of us, the world, the so called.

Nitin Bajaj

Mhmm.

Anshu Gupta

I’m saying that it’s it did give us a chance to relook. It gives us it gave us a chance to sit silently and say something failed. We couldn’t save so many people. Ultimately, the farmers and this is a common statement I always make to make it a point that even in a country like India and many, many other parts of the world, farmers must have been nominated 8 1000, 10000, 15000 different variety of rice itself.

Nitin Bajaj

Mhmm.

Anshu Gupta

But you will still call farming on a skill. If it is not, I don’t know if it’s what?

Nitin Bajaj

Yes.

Anshu Gupta

Because of them, we all survived in the world.

Nitin Bajaj

Mhmm.

Anshu Gupta

Not because of the factories, but because of the farmers. But do we in the world, do we really value that? That’s the so for me, that’s one of the biggest challenge. I’m I’m just trying to see that in the, in the remaining years of life, what will happen? How how will it shape up? What will, what will be the trigger where some large scale change really, really happens? Nonpolitical, nonreligious. There are other ways of doing.

Nitin Bajaj

And I agree. And that’s that is a big question that we all need to answer ourselves is what will it take for us to really pause and introspect? Right? If such a massive crisis of our generation of our lifetime, we were we were all scared. There was fear, but that fear didn’t go deep enough. Right? And and to your point, it’s a very introspective question, and I never thought of it that way. Right? Yeah. Why do we call farmers unskilled? That’s such a core essential need for our survival. In fact, on the other extreme, if I were to build on that and say, it is the processed food that kills us. It’s not the natural one. Right

Anshu Gupta

1. So That’s cool. And if you see all across the globe, peoples and villages survive more than the cities.

Nitin Bajaj

Yes.

Anshu Gupta

Not just for India.

Nitin Bajaj

Yes. True. Now on the other side of challenges come opportunities. And as you’re thinking and guiding us through these hard hitting realities, I would love for you to share what’s that one big most exciting opportunity that brings a smile to you?

Anshu Gupta

Well, I see, I see a lot of this powerful youth happening in a in a big way. Right? And we all need to remember the thing that we and when we started, we were also exactly the same age. We are a student, but even that time, you know, we were we were also exactly in the same age. I I I see that that as a huge opportunity because, whatever people call about you well, I I know that youth unfortunately get a lot of negative remarks and the positive they deserve. Yeah. Because blaming them that they are always on mobile kind of thing. I mean, it’s part of life now. But and what I see, and especially when I and I I’ve seen it through my team, through hundreds of people with whom personally, we have been able to work or I’ve been able to work personally. I see a huge hope. I see that they’re aware. I see there is, they need to do something at a speed. They are they are coming up with lot of. They’re coming up with new ideas. They’re coming up with new innovations. And they do it with. They do it with funds, which is very important. Because one thing which I’ve been saying, you know, right from the beginning, that, by showing poverty on your face, you can’t remove the poverty. When I say poverty, I only talk about the economic poverty. 15 different ways kind of Mhmm. So you you see that you see that fun part. You see that music. Mhmm. So that that gives me a lot of yes. They need to be much more aware. They need to understand that, it is not their problem. I mean, outside the problem. It is their own problem also because we all want to live in a better world. They have the opportunity. They have the resources. They need to be a little bit more focused, more aware, and say that the time is now. We can’t wait for it. Fortunately, most of them and many of them are in a good position. Because if I talk about my father’s generation

Nitin Bajaj

Mhmm. They were

Anshu Gupta

in the survival mode. Right. They were in the middle somewhere. And these people, most of them are not in the survival mode. Their parents have taken good care of the in terms of education and assets. They’re in the growth mode. And if I grow personally in the entire world, we leave behind, it’s not good. Not at all. So that’s an opportunity. Little bit of correction tweaking Mhmm. If that happens and that happens at a speed. Because the time is now. I mean, if if you see Palestine, if you see Mhmm. If you see Afghanistan Anshu if you see Ukraine and what is happening, that that or or so many other natural disasters, not only human made. Mhmm. That that risk is also next door. You know? I think that also should bother us. That also should we should see as an opportunity that we are going through the worst time, you know, at least in in our life history. What happened in the past, I only read. I was not a part of it.

Nitin Bajaj

Right.

Anshu Gupta

But whatever I is there so I can’t say that, no, this is how society operates. It happened in past. So it must have happened. Maybe people must have tried to take care of it. But this is happening in my lifetime. Mhmm. But I am responsible for this. I need to respond to this.

Nitin Bajaj

You’re right. It’s it’s really up to us how we help the next generation navigate. They do have a good foundation. Whether we take credit for it or not, they do have a good foundation. How can we be there as coaches and mentors and not people who doubt them and create that negativity around, you know, we have devices and other things or the fact that they don’t have to come from that scarcity mindset because they have it better than we did and our our parents did. But how do we help them make the most of what we have so we can take it to the next level? I agree. And also to to your point about the natural and disasters that we have made, It is again to your previous point that’s that should be an awakening call for us. Right? What can we do and what can we do better from here? Because yeah. If we if we don’t take action and if we don’t change what is our reality, then it’ll keep getting worse.

Anshu Gupta

Yeah. And I think all these disasters, including COVID and these wars, have taught us that, disaster is not about some financially vulnerable or, you know, someone who’s socially backward

Nitin Bajaj

Right.

Anshu Gupta

Person. Because we always connect disaster with the people that they suffer. They are the victims kind of thing. Or every single disaster, what I just spoke about, these 3 2, 3 wars and this COVID.

Nitin Bajaj

Mhmm. It

Anshu Gupta

didn’t actually it didn’t actually tell every single person of whatever economics status. You must be owning a company, the best possible company in the Ukraine. Mhmm. And now, unfortunately, you are forced to be a refugee.

Nitin Bajaj

True. True. Anshu, one thing I really loved about what you said by using that example of you cannot remove poverty by looking poor. I’m a big believer in that. That you have to show and give hope and that’s where the transformation begins. And a lot of this work and a lot of these points that you touched upon are about paradigm shifts, are about making these big transformations. And to be able to do that, you have to show that change is possible, improvement is possible, and this is what it looks like. Like, there is happiness. There is joy. If if you’re trying to go to a a group that is that is dealing with sadness. So I’m a big believer of leading by example, and you’re a shining light on that. So wanted wanted to bring that back in perspective. Now as we look forward, I wanna take a moment and go back in time. Look at the rearview mirror and talk about 2 moments in your life and career. One where things did not work out as you had expected and it became a failure. And and to be better worded a lesson. And another example where things went beyond your imagination and it became a success to an extent that you hadn’t even expected it to be.

Anshu Gupta

Nitin one of the one of the constant failure even, we are in the process of failure already late

Nitin Bajaj

Mhmm.

Anshu Gupta

Is that, we have not been able to register this entire issue of clothing and material poverty. Mhmm. And so many other things which we which we do and where we have huge amount of proof of concept in a in a huge country like India, which is like a lab. And so if you if you do anything in even if 7, 8 states of India, is basically a replicable model anywhere in the world. So I think one of the failure, which I would say is the, we are not able to, pass it on to the world as as the better way, as the way forward, as not only the ideology, but the idea.

Nitin Bajaj

Mhmm.

Anshu Gupta

Or or the non issues which we’ve been talking about, you know, either get into the global agenda. Mhmm. And maybe, I’ll not justify it, but, we should have done it. For sure, it’s our moral responsibility also. That every single little success, must be out in the market so that people copy, replicate, you know, and and give it a local flavor. But I think it was, it was too overwhelming for us to sort out what we were doing and especially when we also entered in the disaster response spaces. But now this Goon 3.0, which we are saying, is all about replication and copy. And we’re saying that whatever we are doing, we’re doing. But, people need to copy. People need to replicate, and we need to stand with people to make sure that the copy happens, and it happens easily. So this was a failure. This has been a failure, but, we’re working on it. So maybe if we if we meet after a couple of years, we should be able to give some good experience.

Nitin Bajaj

But we’ll hold you accountable to it because I know you’re good for it. And, you know, before you talk about the success, I want to acknowledge that it’s it’s not easy for a leader to admit that this is what we did wrong, but it takes an even better person and a better leader to say this is how we are fixing it. And we have a road map for it, and we are on it right now. So really appreciate that. Thank you.

Anshu Gupta

Thank you. And, Alexis, I would say the, the entire response on, on COVID. And the fact that, half of our team come from those vulnerable background in terms of economy and all that. But not even as some single person has started walking on the road. I call it a big success, with lot of emotions. Mhmm. Because that is the story of trust. That is the story where not even a single person when when and, the relatives of those people were trying to go home. K. When they were losing jobs, when the entire COVID crisis happened. None of our team member really not even not even a peace rate was. Those in Kamal’s only happens at peace rate. Not even a single person got up and started or called us up to find out whether they are safe or not, whether, whether they will get their little bit of salaries or whatever. No one asked us. For me, that’s extremely emotional. Yes. For me for me, that is something which, I mean, I can come here and talk about I I I, but that’s all useless because there’s nothing like I. And this is a constant exercise that maybe I’ll tell you later. Mhmm. This is this is the result of we. We means not only the team, but hundreds of people around us. To build this space, which is the space of trust, which is the space of love, the space of care, and where people don’t just move out thinking that what will happen. Mhmm. For me, not only the operational part of COVID response. We did, and I think we did a okay job, to call kind of risk which we were supposed to. But more importantly, the the people part of it. That I call as access for sure. And and and and, importantly, we need to acknowledge that we are not we are not, like, big industry. Right? We don’t have reserves in our life. We don’t have bank loans or NPA nonperforming asset facilities. We are completely, dependent on on a small contributions of people.

Nitin Bajaj

No. I want to acknowledge that success. It’s huge because as you said, these people, the vulnerable population as as they’re called, which again, you know, I don’t agree with the labels, but so be it. So when we go down to the basics of food, shelter, and clothing, and your only means when you don’t have reserves has completely stopped, how can you continue to be selfless? Right? And that’s that’s a sign of success as a leader, as an organization, and as a human being. So congratulations to you and to your entire team for putting others first and being truly selfless because this is where the real person comes out. So again, hats off to you and your team for being there for each other, for really inspiring and showing what we truly means. Really appreciate that.

Anshu Gupta

Thank you, Anurag.

Nitin Bajaj

So before we go through the next questions, I wanna take a moment here and and ask you, how can we help? How can the audience? How can people that are watching and listening to this? What can they do to help?

Anshu Gupta

So I’ll go to a larger team. You know, when I was, leaving my job, in the private firm, I’ve done a very small calculation that, that, ideally, the fees should have been this month, and I paid only this month. And then I asked that if that fees was that much, was it possible for my bills to pay? And I the answer was no. And I’m sure they would have paid, but it would have been very, very tough. And it would have really impacted our life in many other ways. So that was the day almost like, I’m talking about 1998, when I was leaving job. I realized that I’m the biggest product of subsidy. Then I also realized that every single person who goes to a college Mhmm. Even even many of these private universities across the globe, not all my country. They’re really, really a huge part of it. K? And subsidy never comes from the government or or from the rich people.

Nitin Bajaj

Mhmm.

Anshu Gupta

Subsidy comes from the farmers and laborers. Again, the labeled vulnerable.

Nitin Bajaj

Yes.

Anshu Gupta

They they give subsidy to they’re never given fair prices. Imagine if a farmer starts getting, the daily wages, me and you will not be able to touch rice or and so don’t don’t even think of making dishes out of it. Mhmm. Cakes and all, but we will not be able to touch even this. Right? So that subsidy comes from that. And that 2020, the COVID crisis also proved that. That that me and you were enjoying life through Zoom and getting our own salaries and everything. But the people who made our houses are people who who have been feeding us from the road. Mhmm. So so my realization that we are the productive subsidy and, a lot of us were talking and listening also are the same category. So I’m not debating on whether we should get subsidy or not. That’s a huge issue. We’ll talk about it later. But one thing which is Sean is that me and you can pay back. Yes. Large number of population across the globe still need that kind of support, but me and you have come out of there. We can pay back. So my let’s my my simple message to the, audience is to take it as a debt. Mhmm. Take it as a. Don’t give back, pay back.

Nitin Bajaj

Yes.

Anshu Gupta

Okay? Pay Bajaj to whatever. Non religion, non politics, I would say. Because religion and politics are your personal thing. You end up giving whatever you want. Right. I’m talking about people. Give back to people. Give back to people with humility, not for a picture of a book. Right? Give back by keeping their dignity intact because dignity is not something you can give to people. Mhmm. Dignity is something which is a part of your soul. People are born with that. So don’t challenge that. Yes. Right? Just just make that make that happen because, if each one of us have something good, we live in a better society. So it’s be be selfish in doing good. You know? Because it it helps you. It helps me. It helps everyone. It doesn’t just support that person who you think need help. Even I need help. I need I need smiling faces around me. I when I move out, I do not want to, see injustice. Mhmm. I that injustice bothers me. Well, I mean, it it it distorts my dinner if nothing else. You know? If I see a sad face, someone begging, it bothers me. So I’m saying, let me be selfish. Let me do it for myself.

Nitin Bajaj

Very beautifully put. And, yes, we all need to appeal to ourselves. As you rightly said, pay Bajaj, not give. It’s not giving. We are paying back the debt we’ve acquired over the years, and we all have. So thank you for saying that. Now this is you know, you live a busy life. You have to travel. You have to travel to the innermost parts of India and then, of course, to other countries to talk about the work you and your team is doing. In between all of this and as a family person, you know, playing different roles and wearing different hats, what’s the one thing you do to de stress, to enjoy, to have fun, to maybe take a break if you ever do?

Anshu Gupta

A break? I don’t know. But yeah. I mean, of course, it happens, but, you know, I I love I love driving. And, favorite pastime, it’s, I mean, the street food, which fortunately, all 3 of us, me, my wife, we host cofounder, and daughter, 3 of us love. So the pani puri is the favorite pastime. Gullabas is the favorite pastime. We also, I think COVID taught us how to play UNO. We used to because we were confined and we’re too busy. We come out with this games of UNO and used to cheat each other in that game. You know? Yeah. I mean and that’s it. I I’m I’m trying to come back to the, to the hobby of music Mhmm. Listening and singing. I’m trying to come back. Let’s see how it how it happens.

Nitin Bajaj

You wanna give us a jalak?

Anshu Gupta

Man. I mean, maybe 2 years later.

Nitin Bajaj

Done. We’ll make a note of that. And then, of course, you’re also a writer and a photographer, so I’m sure you sneak out a little bit of time for those hobbies as well.

Anshu Gupta

I need to. I mean, that’s where I’m missing. I know that, that writing, gives me a lot of satisfaction. Mhmm. I also started writing majorly after COVID. I started writing something called COVID. Mhmm. Okay. Because because it but then I realized that after writing couple of big pieces, I realized that I’m actually coming up with lot of sadness and anger. And I don’t want an entire, book to become, you know, the the grand of this sadness and anger. And and I leave that in the history. No. I do not. So I stopped myself. That way, I said no. Because that time, that was the only thing which was coming out too. So but but I’ll complete that now that I have, Ivy. I have a lot of stories of great, a lot of the stories of love after that, during that. But I’m sure, complete that with remote time.

Nitin Bajaj

Okay. Another thing on our follow-up session to check-in on. K. Made a note of that. Now onto my favorite part of the show, would love to hear some one line life lessons from you, Anshu.

Anshu Gupta

I would say the first important thing is love it all. Okay? So be on it, that way. The second is that I will say there’s nothing like I. And I I personally do this because I think people like us have a have a chance that, anything goes in your head. K? So I’m not I I’m not into meditation. I’m not although people call me a switchable, but I don’t know how. I I I don’t practice anything. Right? But before sleeping, one thing I think which is really about with me, and that’s that’s a life lesson for me. A little bit, not one sentence, but a to be. And before sleeping, if you when I do it, even at 12 or 1, if I just spend a couple of minutes with me myself and say that how many times I’ve used I. And then you realize that 70% of that. Alright. Maybe more. More than 70%. And at 12 in the 9, you understand it’s all about and I often jokingly tell people that at least till 2 o’clock next day, you will have humility. After 2, you might you might be a again, but then at 12, you’ll be trash. You know? So that’s the life cycle for us. So that’s that’s an important life lesson. And then I always say that, you know, you have problems in volume. You need solutions in volume. You need people to solve those issues also in volume. There’s nothing like either or. It’s all about end. And then the last one I would say that, I mean, do us, never look for a logic. They just do it. But if you don’t want to do it, then you keep looking for logics not doing it. Who? This is getting to it. They fail, they succeed, they improve, they change. But they have that mindset of, like, you know, because those those are important. Those experiments are Because at the end of the day, they I think all of us have got one life. COVID also taught us that there’s no guarantee. With the best possible resources and the biggest possible buildings, we create for ourselves. You know? And the popularity we all create for ourselves. We might be the king and the whatever whatever. But one small invisible virus takes away everything from you. So live that life. And I often go to the colleges to talk and all, and I often promote the idea of bunking classes and leading engineering, but maybe playing guitar because you came in compulsion and pressure, and we will held you responsible because you wasted some resources. I also have been talking about it, you know, in my other session. But as an individual, you have to live your life. You know? If if playing guitar makes you happy, do that. Just one life.

Nitin Bajaj

Anshu, thank you so much for sharing your journey, your story, but more importantly for being you and doing what you do not as I as a we but leading that change leading an entire tribe an entire generation to do well, to be better versions, to be humans, and to acknowledge other humans and uplift the community. We really appreciate it. You are my hero, and thank you for inspiring me and continuing to motivate me. We really appreciate it.

Anshu Gupta

Thank you. Thank you so much, Nitin. Be on it.