Select Page

July 12, 2025

Suril

Desai

Suril Desai is a Partner at Nishith Desai Associates – championed crypto regulation in India. He is the Founder, CEO of Yugen Media. He is also the Producer of Beyond the Border –  a documentary chronicling snowboard initiatives in Afghanistan, funded using Bitcoin.

Episode Highlights

Suril Desai (00:00-01:11)

Nitin Bajaj introduces Suril Desai as a multifaceted professional. Suril shares his anarchist views and Bitcoin passion.

Data Ownership (01:12-03:25)

Suril recalls a 2013 talk on big data. He questions data ownership complexities.

The Challenges and Opportunities of a Connected World (03:26-08:07)

Nitin notes Suril’s filmmaking background. Suril critiques state power structures.

The Rise of Entrepreneurship (08:08-09:27)

Suril highlights social media’s kindness and people challenging authority.

Life Lessons (09:28-11:04)

Suril discusses academic challenges and parental support. He embraces the “joy of missing out” perspective.

The Flaws of Traditional Systems (11:05-14:01)

Suril criticizes current economic models and systemic power imbalances.

A Call for Change (14:02-16:56)

Suril advocates for alternative systems and universal basic income. He challenges existing economic structures.

Relaxation Methods (17:01-19:51)

Suril shares his creative and spiritual relaxation methods.

One-Line Life Lessons (20:02-21:50)

Suril advises thinking independently and questioning authority. He views life as a wave to navigate.

Final Thoughts (21:51-22:09)

Nitin thanks Suril for the conversation. Suril hopes for Bitcoin’s future growth.

Show Transcript

Transcript - Full Episode

[00:00:00 – 00:00:08] Nitin Bajaj

Welcome to the industry show. I’m your host, Nitin Bajaj. And joining me today is my good friend Suril Desai. Suril, welcome on the show.

[00:00:08 – 00:00:09] Suril Desai

Thank you.

[00:00:09 – 00:00:13] Nitin Bajaj

It’s great to have you here. Let’s start with who is Suril?

[00:00:14 – 00:01:57] Suril Desai

Oh, that’s a deeply philosophical question. Basically, I, at heart, I’m an anarchist. I like to challenge the law, I like to defy status quo. And you know, like, if it’s. There are so many facets to my life. Like there is this one facet where I’m a lawyer, there’s this one facet where I’m a painter. And then there’s this one as when I’m a poet. But above all things, I’m probably a bitcoin fanatic. You know, I love bitcoin so much that I got it tattooed on my right hand, on my right wrist. It’s been, for me, it’s been extremely liberating. The whole experience has been like. I first got into decentralization when I was doing my undergrad at Menlo College in California. This was sometime in 2002, 2003. And while I was studying there, I chanced upon this one program which University of Berkeley had very recently launched. They were trying to experiment with the power of decentralized computing. So they had this program called scti, which is Search for Extraterrestrial Intelligence. And they told you to download their software and they said that just leave your computers on. And all that extra compute was powering a supercomputer which was there in Berkeley. And they were searching for radio frequencies in outer space. So while I was in college, I had a great time. You know, like the more I left it on, the more points I earned.

[00:01:58 – 00:02:02] Nitin Bajaj

Right. I was sitting all the way back in India at that point.

[00:02:02 – 00:02:03] Suril Desai

Yeah.

[00:02:03 – 00:02:08] Nitin Bajaj

Exchanged positions. But I remember joining in and logging on and keeping it on.

[00:02:08 – 00:04:04] Suril Desai

And in 2013, I was invited by the German Russian Young Leaders Forum to go and give a talk on big data. And at that stage I was like, I was preparing for my thing and then I was, I looked at a lot of documents, I read, tried to, you know, and this was, remember, this is on the backdrop of G20, which was happening in St. Petersburg that time. So it was a very high profile event and I went for it. And through my research I had found that the most pertaining question of our lifetime is going to be who owns the data? Right. And until date, we have not been able to answer it. You know, the nations say that they own the data, the corporations say that they own the data. And then there’s the self that says, this is my data. And all these wars, it’s access to data and access to people and access to communities. And I just said that. Who owns this data? Let me know. Clearly. You know, like. And till date, there has been no clear answer for it. It’s still a hotly debated issue. And the blockchain is just making it even more complex. Right. I mean, it’s everywhere and it’s nowhere. It’s yours, but it’s not yours. And look at how much data is being collected on us today. Right, right. I mean, your sleep patterns. All the way to your sleep patterns. Right. So it’s. Yeah, there is the positive side of it, but there’s also a large negative. Right. Like you’re being fed information at a pace at which you can’t consume it anymore. You know, like there is so much thrown at you. And, and I think in a broader concept of things, I think the world has. Is come much closer.

[00:04:05 – 00:04:41] Nitin Bajaj

You know, it does now when you take a step back. And, and one thing you did not mention is, amongst other things, is that you’re also a filmmaker. And we’ll talk about that. When you think of you, you call yourself a bitcoin fanatic. I think you are one of the very few people that called it back in the day. And I remember you were handing out, you know, when, when you go to conferences, people do a giveaway and you were giving out bitcoin and a lot of the people walked away and didn’t even pick it up.

[00:04:41 – 00:04:42] Suril Desai

Yeah.

[00:04:42 – 00:05:10] Nitin Bajaj

And if those people remember, they walked away and didn’t pick it up, they would be kicking themselves today. Now, when you think about this big picture, this holistic outlook on life, economics, world law, all of these things, what’s the one big challenge? Distill it down. I mean, there are many, many challenges. Right. But if you have to call out that one big challenge, what is that?

[00:05:11 – 00:06:44] Suril Desai

I think we have the biggest challenge is this state monopoly on violence. Today, if you see the state has, you know, like, if a cop comes and beats you up, you can’t do anything to him. But if you go up and beat up your neighbor, then the cops come and arrest you. So the monopoly of violence lies with the state. And until that monopoly is looked upon as, you know, like coercive, you know, like you have authoritarian regimes, you have democratic regimes, but end of the day, the power of violence to commit inferior. You are a military soldier and you go kill from India and you go kill 30 Pakistani soldiers, you are rewarded with all kinds of medals and all. But if you go out there and just start killing people on the street, you are labeled a psycho or a psychopath or whatever. Don’t get me wrong, I’m not trying to defend serial killers in those kinds. But there is this layer of hypocrisy, right. On the one side you’re saying that if you kill for the state, you are rewarded, but if you do it for your own personal intentions, you’re penalized. And now with more. And if you look at the world has become more militarized in the last couple of years to an extent which is unfathomable. If you look at what’s happening in the world, entrepreneurs are becoming. Presidents are the most powerful countries in the world.

[00:06:45 – 00:06:45] Nitin Bajaj

Yes.

[00:06:45 – 00:08:05] Suril Desai

Entrepreneurs are becoming, you know, they’re challenging the, the whole status of the nation state. Right. And it’s, it’s, it’s. I mean there is entrepreneurship, which is from the business point of view, and then there’s personal entrepreneurship where you are striving to be someone, be someone in the society, get your own brand out there. The state pays you to be complacent. So today we have reached a stage where, you know, all the violence that’s being committed in the world is in the name of the citizens. Whether you take Israel, Palestine, you take India, Pakistan, you take Russia, Ukraine. It’s all being done in the name of the people. True. But people have no say in the war. So it’s, it’s pretty messed up. Right? I mean it’s frustrating more than anything else because you know, the people pay taxes, but those taxpayers money is used for violence. Right. War is the income tax, is the rule of ought to root of all wars.

[00:08:07 – 00:08:41] Nitin Bajaj

I love that. Now let’s look at the brighter side of things are where they are. But with challenges come opportunities. And I would love for you given, you know, you’ve almost got this rebellious streak for a good reason. When you look at the world order, you look at the things you’re specifically involved with. What is that one most exciting thing, that one big opportunity that gets you all excited?

[00:08:42 – 00:09:26] Suril Desai

I get really excited when I see all these reels on Instagram or Tiktoks of the world where people are going out there and being kind and making videos of that. Right? Yeah, it has its pitfalls. The like button has been, it has created so much impact. Right. People are going out there trying to be good in their own ways that they are taking chances, they’re doing silly things and they’re doing some smart things. As well. And that has given the people the opportunity to stand up against those who want to control them, which means institutions, public institutions, and have not worked the government or whatever.

[00:09:27 – 00:10:00] Nitin Bajaj

Now, as we look at the brighter side of what people have been able to contribute because of that small like button or that social validation, I’d love for you to take a step back, reflect on two moments in life where one, things did not work out as you had expected. There was disappointment, failure, and maybe some lessons that came out of it. And another instance where things exceeded your expectations and for a success beyond your imagination.

[00:10:01 – 00:11:06] Suril Desai

See, I mean, I mean, my parents have been like, super supportive of me, right? And I flunked my ninth grade. I’ve, you know, I got kicked out of a college in the first semester itself when I was in Midwest. And there have been many points of failure, but my parents said, don’t worry, just experience life the way it’s supposed to be. You know, like, you fail sometimes, you pass sometimes. And I was. What that did to me is that I was not afraid of losing opportunities. You know, like everyone says fomo, right? Fear of missing out. I say jomo. Joy of missing out, right? And sometimes you let go of things and sometimes you hold on to things. For in my case, the only thing I held on to is bitcoins. I mean, because end of the day I realized like, all this, what will we do with all this money in the world? Imagine if entire.

[00:11:07 – 00:11:08] Nitin Bajaj

The.

[00:11:09 – 00:14:02] Suril Desai

They say the world is in debt, but to whom? You know, who are we paying? Nations are just building up this national debt. You know, like it started with the US now it’s migrated to India, all the nation, and we are just accumulating debt. But who is that debt owed to? And more often than not, you would say, oh, it’s a bank. And. But what has the bank really done for you? It’s just stored your hardened wealth and it’s giving you a license to use your own wealth. I mean, if it’s wealth, it should be with me. I should be able to carry it with myself, right? It should be like, I don’t want to keep on asking for permission for doing every little thing, but. And then the states have been formed in such a way that you are compelled to. To use the state currency. You’re compelled to open a bank account, you’re compelled to pay your taxes. And there are so many of these compulsions that have been imposed by people who have been in power and then they exploit it. I mean, with all respect, all due respect to all the world, Leaders, especially the political leaders, they have a free hand to do whatever they want. They decide, oh, we are going to bomb Gaza today. Oh, we are going to bomb Pakistan today. Or Pakistan is going to be, we are going to bomb India today. Ukraine is like, we’ll bomb Russia. They have a free hand. And then they create this whole environment of distrust. And today the trust in government is at its all time low. People have lost faith in the governments and it’s. And because of that, it’s like it becomes challenging for the people more than the, you know, like the heads of state can just take a private jet and fly off to wherever they want. But the ordinary people are stuck in the war. You know, they’re stuck in hardships, all the hardships. And then say, and then in schools and colleges, they teach you hard work pays. Hard work doesn’t pay. You know, for a lot of people. I mean, you know, those who are in the ivory towers of the corporate world, they are sitting on in fancy rooms and venues while the people on the street are struggling for a piece of food or a meal. And this is, this should be like, why is it like this? You know, like, why do we say that? If you’re doing any kind of physical labor, why do we say that it’s unskilled labor. What is. I mean, probably that’s the most skilled part of the labor.

[00:14:02 – 00:14:03] Nitin Bajaj

I agree.

[00:14:03 – 00:14:18] Suril Desai

Everything else surrounding it is unskilled. You know, you’re just using formulas and all. And I strongly believe that we need to respect. And in a country like India, the people who are doing the menial jobs are the most disrespected.

[00:14:19 – 00:14:20] Nitin Bajaj

Yes.

[00:14:20 – 00:14:48] Suril Desai

At times they have no rights. And then, then they say that, you know, oh, it’s the Bangladesh who are taking away your jobs. In America, they’ll say, Mexicans are taking away your jobs. I mean, if these people weren’t there, we wouldn’t get our food. Yeah, and that’s what really gets me. I wouldn’t say angry, but I would say more like I’m like, come on, you know, we, we got to be, we can do better than this. Right?

[00:14:48 – 00:14:48] Nitin Bajaj

Yes.

[00:14:48 – 00:16:33] Suril Desai

I mean, it’s not communism, it’s not capitalism. It’s somewhere in between. Right. And today both of the systems have failed. So now there’ll be a whole new era where I’m a big believer in universal basic income. I mean, there is no way out. I mean, how can you have someone who has. I mean, look at Elon, right? He’s sitting on some $200 billion of wealth and he can easily afford to give away 1 billion to each citizen of the world and still be wealthy. But doing that is considered. Oh, you know, what, what will they do? They’ll just drink. But who’s making the drinks and who’s making all those products? It’s. There’s a monopoly in that. Right. And all the. And. And they say, like, when you’re given too much, you will exploit it. Yeah, I know that. That’s why, you know, that’s why that’s what you’ve been doing. That’s what the politicians have been doing. But now it’s. Now we are in an age where it’s totally different. You know, the systems of politics that worked in the 19th century or the 20th century will not work in 21st century because it’s a whole, whole different world. It’s like people are travel, moving places. You have all kinds of nomads, you know, digital nomads. I just saw recently this one topmost motorbike racer when he was in the. He was in like the f. One of motorbikes, and he just gave up on it, his career, which was going really well, and now he’s just walking bare feet across the world. Wow.

[00:16:34 – 00:16:35] Nitin Bajaj

So that’s huge.

[00:16:36 – 00:16:59] Suril Desai

Yeah. And it’s. I mean, it’s. It’s no longer which country you come from or which ethnicity you are. It doesn’t matter. You are a human being. I am a human being. So we should be treating each other the way we like to be treated. Yes, but we are not doing that. And that’s the main reason of most of the conflicts.

[00:17:00 – 00:17:19] Nitin Bajaj

I agree. Now, changing gears, I’d love to ask you, when you’re not thinking Bitcoin, when you’re not thinking about all the things we talked about, what do you do for fun? What do you do to de. Stress and just kind of get off the treadmill, so to speak?

[00:17:20 – 00:17:58] Suril Desai

So I listen to a really loud music. Like, it can be deafening for some, but I listen to really loud music and then have my coffee and just, you know, just like I listen to everything, you know, like, from classical Mozart to Carnatic music to pop to rap. And now I’ve somehow found a new way which is like, I don’t care who the artist is. I don’t go by the type. I just let the algorithm, my algorithm on Spotify or YouTube make me recommendations. And I keep listening to those.

[00:17:59 – 00:17:59] Nitin Bajaj

Nice.

[00:17:59 – 00:19:52] Suril Desai

And I find some jewels. And then I’m like, okay, I heard it this time. If I want to hear it again, I can always rediscover it because of all the storage. So it’s, I think, music. I mean, even during COVID you know, like, we would be at home and every evening we would be listening to music from the 70s, the 80s, the 60s. Me and my dad and my aunt, we would sit in my room, nothing to do. We are just listening to Pink Floyds of the world. We are listening to some Zubin Mehta or have. Whatever you have. And. And we had a great time during COVID You know, like, it was so peaceful. You know, we are doing. My mom is. Is quite religious, so she does these prayers. So we would all sit in the. In the temple, in the house, and we would be, you know, chanting and doing all. All those kind of religious rituals. And at the same time, we would be giving, you know, doing all these webinars and you know that in. During COVID everyone got a webinar fatigue by the end of it, so. True. Yeah. Yeah. And then I paint, you know, like. But I like to paint when I have nothing on my mind. I like to be, like, completely in the state of emptiness, what you call where it’s just me and the canvas. And I don’t even plan what I’m going to do. I mean, whatever colors that I find, I just start splattering them and I’m like. And then something turns up. And then some people say, oh, this is good art. And I’m like, okay, it’s art. It’s art. For me, it was just an expression. You know, I don’t want to label it as art or poetry or anything like that. Like, you know, completely neutral.

[00:19:52 – 00:20:01] Nitin Bajaj

You know, I love that It’s. It’s raw. It’s you in your elements. And whatever you feel like at that point, this is.

[00:20:01 – 00:20:01] Suril Desai

Right.

[00:20:01 – 00:20:11] Nitin Bajaj

You’re. You love that. Now onto my favorite part of the show, which we call the one line life lessons. Suril, I would love for you to share a few of your life lessons with us.

[00:20:12 – 00:20:47] Suril Desai

Wow. The first one of my earliest life lessons was when I was. I found it when I was 21, 22. It’s like, think for yourself. Question authority. That’s one then. And then the other one is, you know, I can’t think of any other one, you know, because it’s. It’s like there is no beginning and there is no end. You know, it’s just a frequency that we are traveling.

And sometimes you. The frequency goes down, sometimes it goes up, and, you know, you just ride the wave.

[00:20:49 – 00:20:57] Nitin Bajaj

True. I love that. I agree. And I believe in just going with the flow, but at the same time thinking for yourself. And.

[00:20:58 – 00:21:32] Suril Desai

Yeah, it’s like, you know, surfing. Right. I mean, when people look at a surfer go on those waves, they say, oh, this guy is crazy. He’s going to kill himself. He’s going to die. What will happen? But the surfer is enjoying it. Right. He’s having a blast. He’s like, oh, I’m right now I’m low, but then I’m going to be so high, and then I’m again going to be low. And they really are snowboarders, for that example. Right. It’s the same. And if they taught us how to ride the wave rather than teaching us how to avoid the wave, we would be in a much better position.

[00:21:33 – 00:21:47] Nitin Bajaj

Yeah. You’re in harmony. You’re one with what is dangerous to somebody who’s not in there. You are having a ball of a time because you have given in and become one with the elements around you.

[00:21:47 – 00:21:48] Suril Desai

Exactly.

[00:21:50 – 00:22:07] Nitin Bajaj

Love that. Suril, thank you so much for making time to share your journey and story and love that you’re holding on to that one thing that you truly believe in. And I wouldn’t be surprised when this releases and the price of bitcoin goes up.

[00:22:08 – 00:22:12] Suril Desai

Yeah, I mean, my dream is, like, before I die, I want to see bitcoin at a million dollars.

Subscribe!

apple podcast
Spotify Logo
Youtube logo