[00:00:00 – 00:00:08] Nitin Bajaj

Hey, everyone. Welcome to the industry show. I’m your host, Nitin Bajaj. And joining me today is Van Lai-DuMone. Van, welcome on the show.

[00:00:08 – 00:00:10] Van Lai-DuMone

Hello, Nitin. Thank you for having me.

[00:00:11 – 00:00:16] Nitin Bajaj

Pleasure is all ours, Van. Let’s get started with the big question. Who is Van?

[00:00:16 – 00:01:03] Van Lai-DuMone

See, you used to throw out the big questions at me right away. Okay. So I think we’re just talking about our mutual fund TAM. So which brings me to this idea that well, the fact I’m a Vietnamese refugee. I came here in 1975 to follow-up Saigon with my family. So that is a big part of my identity and the work I do. So growing up, I saw my parents clearly working hard, following their curiosity out of necessity to raise their family, create a life for themselves and their children in this country. And the work I do now is bringing creativity and curiosity into the workplace in the form of team and leadership development programs. I’m also a mom of a little 11 year old boy. And I guess you think about who is Von in the future. Von will be in the future, will be living on a farm with some farm animals.

[00:01:05 – 00:01:08] Nitin Bajaj

That’s awesome. So in one word, Van is busy.

[00:01:09 – 00:01:12] Van Lai-DuMone

Yes. Yeah. That’s spot on.

[00:01:13 – 00:01:51] Nitin Bajaj

Tell us more about, what worksmART Advantage is. You’re also something I guess, you missed out is you’re also an author of an amazing book. Tell us what worksmART Van is. What’s the the reason behind doing what you’re doing. You could have done so many different things coming from the background that you just shared. Why do this? Why drive culture? Why why work on curiosity? Why help other organizations? So love to hear more on that. And also if you can give us a sense of the size and scale of the impact, you and your team have been able to create just so far.

[00:01:51 – 00:02:02] Van Lai-DuMone

Sure. So there’s so much to say there because, you know, I was raised by Vietnamese refugee parents who instilled hard worksmART, especially in the math and sciences.

[00:02:02 – 00:02:02] Nitin Bajaj

Mhmm.

[00:02:02 – 00:03:15] Van Lai-DuMone

There wasn’t a lot of room for creativity, but I’ve always been a very creative person. When I was little, I think back to, like, where what has always been. I’ve always been creative. My mom would buy me a pair of shoes, I would immediately paint them. I remember one time they bought me a bunk bed that was completely white. By the end end of the day, it had been completely muraled, right, painted it. So that creative apartment has always been there, but I was raised in an environment that didn’t value that creativity, valued the sciences. And so I just I pursued that. I pursued a psychology degree, went into the pharmaceutical industry, and it was in that industry where I found myself feeling very detached from who I truly am. And I was working in learning and development, and I just felt like there must be a different way to do this because I the lack of creativity in the workplace really was something I felt was was missing. What what what it did was it didn’t allow people to be who they really are in the workplace and didn’t get people I found the workplace didn’t really give people a voice. For me, personally, it was bringing creativity back into my personal life that I found, oh, like, if they can do so much for me in my personal life, what could it do for me in the working world?

[00:03:15 – 00:03:15] Nitin Bajaj

Mhmm. And it

[00:03:15 – 00:05:22] Van Lai-DuMone

was just an idea, just a thought for 6 years. And I stayed in the business for for 9 years and then really the breaking point for me was I got married, I have my baby, my son was 8 weeks old when I got a phone call one morning while I was sitting on the couch out here in our living room saying get to the emergency right away. Your brother’s, been in a motorcycle accident. So my brother who’s a police officer at the time had a head on injury and he ended up being in the emergency the neuro ICU for almost 2 months in a coma. So here I am with this 8 week old baby walking around this hospital every single day for hours a day, not knowing what was gonna happen to my brother with this little 8 8 week old baby. And it was in those moments in May of those moments where I thought, I just don’t wanna do this anymore. I wanna take this idea that’s been tapping me on the shoulder that I know will be do will have good impact in the world and bring it to life. So that’s what I did. And just to wrap up that story, my brother is a 100% fine now, he went back to police work and retired about 5 years ago and my son is now 11. So it was during that time I decided to start this business and it went through a lot of different iterations to get to what it is now. So what I do now is my team and I, we go into organizations and we teach leadership development. So anything you can hire another consultant to bring in. Right? Conflict management resolution, giving feedback, building trust on teams, all those skills, except we bring in an element of creativity. And so my form of creativity is hands on creativity. For example, at the end of a project, a workshop, we might make a little grounding rock like this, combine over the work we did. I also bring in a spoken word artist, a d what I have found through that is, number 1, people are more engaged in their learning. They retain the information more readily. And, really, the bottom line with creativity is, number 1, we’re all innately creative. So when we teach and learn through creativity, we tap into a capacity every single person in the room has. And what I also found about creativity, it levels the playing fields where everyone has a chance to have their voice heard.

[00:05:22 – 00:05:26] Nitin Bajaj

You make learning and work fun. That’s amazing.

[00:05:26 – 00:05:27] Van Lai-DuMone

Yes. Absolutely.

[00:05:27 – 00:06:01] Nitin Bajaj

And I would imagine you have some data around this in terms of the loss in productivity when people are not engaged, when people are not using their creative powers to bring that level of innovation to their day to day. I think a lot of us think about innovation as being a very heavy term that cannot impact or help you in your daily life. But just with small changes, small improvements, a little bit of creativity. Not only you make your daily work fun, but also bring in so much more efficiency.

[00:06:03 – 00:06:19] Van Lai-DuMone

I and and I I’m glad you brought that because oftentimes in the worksmART, we think of the word creativity as like art artistry, artistic ability. Mhmm. And that’s not the case. When I talk about creating the workplace, we’re talking about creative thinking, creative problem solving.

[00:06:19 – 00:06:19] Nitin Bajaj

Mhmm.

[00:06:19 – 00:06:44] Van Lai-DuMone

They also look at challenges and overcome overcome obstacles and vet ideas through different lenses and different perspectives. So not only are you getting more ideas on the table, but what you’re also doing is building trust because through creativity and the process and tools of creative thinking and creativity, you’re asking people for more of the ideas. You’re using your curiosity. So when you’re when you do that in the workplace, you’re building trust.

[00:06:45 – 00:06:56] Nitin Bajaj

So true. Now give us a sense for who is an ideal customer for you and an ideal engagement, and what are the different geographies you work with?

[00:06:57 – 00:08:38] Van Lai-DuMone

So I have worked so in person, I’ve worked all over the United States, not Canada yet. And during the pandemic, it really opened up this idea of, well, I because I never did anything virtually before. Mhmm. Because how do you pack £50 of Legos and put it online. Right? So I had to find a way. So a lot of my tools are hands on. So I had to figure out a way to bring this to a virtual environment. And by doing so, I work with companies in Dubai, in Vietnam, virtually. So I would say we are a global brand in some ways. And my ideal client, because as I think I mentioned, my 11 year old son at home who has made it very clear, he doesn’t like mom traveling that much anymore because I travel a lot. So ideal client is within United States. And I found that for me, the clients I love working with are midsize, high growth organizations with about 50 to 300 people because I find that those are the organizations who understand the value of building a culture and and they’ll invest in a long term program to help develop their teams and leaders. And they need it. Right? Because what I’m finding that in a lot of companies is what happens is someone’s good at their job. They’re good at sales. They’re good at marketing, whatever it is, so they get promoted into a managerial leadership role, but they’ve never had any training to be a leader. Mhmm. So that’s the work I’m trying to do. I I do a lot of one off with the bigger companies, but I do my I when you say ideal client is those midsized high growth companies who who understand the investment in long term development and trying to build your emerging leaders into your future leaders.

[00:08:38 – 00:09:03] Nitin Bajaj

Makes a lot of sense in it. Especially when you’re high growth, you’re wanting efficiency. You want trust. You want reliability. You want people to have the skills. But therein lies the catch. As you said, they have never had that formal training. And just because of that lack of training, you don’t want to give up on a on an ideal person that has the trust of their teams, that has the passion, and Van bring in that level of growth and efficiency.

[00:09:04 – 00:09:06] Van Lai-DuMone

Correct. Yeah.

[00:09:06 – 00:09:13] Nitin Bajaj

Now as you help companies overcome their challenges, I’d love to hear what is the one big challenge you’re facing.

[00:09:14 – 00:09:50] Van Lai-DuMone

I would say when you said early I’m busy, that’s an understatement. I do a lot of those. I think how would I put this? I think for me, the my biggest challenge is focus. Because as a creative person and as someone who has a lot of ideas, I wanna move with all my ideas. And for me, my biggest challenge is okay. Let’s stay focused. When I try when I come up with a strategy and a plan, implement it and keep doing it versus, like, oh, I tried it once. Let’s try something else now. So but for me, I think it is that idea of getting focused, coming with strategies, getting focused, and sticking with the plan and trusting the process.

[00:09:50 – 00:09:51] Nitin Bajaj

I can relate to that.

[00:09:51 – 00:09:53] Van Lai-DuMone

I’m amazed I had a feeling.

[00:09:56 – 00:10:02] Nitin Bajaj

Now on the flip side of challenges come opportunities. What’s the most exciting one you have in front of you?

[00:10:02 – 00:11:03] Van Lai-DuMone

So I would so let’s go back to the book because you had mentioned the book and and thank you for saying that because I’m still getting used to calling myself an author. So this book is called What If Peace Could Fly, A Practical Guide to Follow Your Curiosities to Achieve Impractical Possibilities. And the book is a framework. It helps people who are maybe not like us, who have an idea that’s been swirling around, tapping on the shoulder, and they just won’t ever move on it. They don’t know how. They’re fearful about it. So this is a a 3 part framework with guidelines, with, exercises in it to help people get to that first small step. And when I think about this book, it’s a right now, the only way people can get to my work is if their company brings me in. But this book now gives me access to individuals. So the biggest opportunity for me in terms of this book is to get this worksmART to more people And I am building a, like, a personal brand around this book where I’m gonna be offering live online courses around the book and then also some one on one coaching.

[00:11:04 – 00:11:07] Nitin Bajaj

That’s amazing. When do we get to be a part of that?

[00:11:07 – 00:11:25] Van Lai-DuMone

It’s coming soon. I’ll just give me the first 90 minute workshop. And, again, like, just what I was telling you before, this idea of being patient and seeking to a strategy, I have a virtual assistant who’s helping me set the stage for that and doing starting the process of of marketing and putting it out there in the world.

[00:11:25 – 00:11:52] Nitin Bajaj

That’s super exciting. Hardy, congratulations and looking forward to the launch. Now as we look about and peek into the future, I wanna pause and reflect and take a moment and have you shared 2 experiences from your previous life? 1 where things did not work out as you had expected. There was failure. There were lessons. And another one where things exceeded your expectations and became a success beyond what you had imagined.

[00:11:54 – 00:12:23] Van Lai-DuMone

Okay. So the first one so what I didn’t mention before is while I was working in the full time in the pharmaceutical industry, I also decided to open up a barre studio. Have you ever heard of a ballet barre exercise? So one of my coworkers, I thought it’d be a great idea, and it was not well thought out. We just thought we’re gonna we’re gonna open 1. We got someone a company to we were gonna franchise from this company. I wrote a business plan, went to the Bajaj. They gave me money. It just all just happened.

[00:12:23 – 00:12:23] Nitin Bajaj

Yep.

[00:12:23 – 00:13:32] Van Lai-DuMone

And all of a sudden, we had this fitness studio 45 minutes away from where either of us lived. Neither of us had experience running any type of retail anything or space or fitness studio. And I just remember, like, we had our grand we built up the whole thing. My friends, the architect, she built it up for us and it was beautiful and it was fun to build it. And then we had our opening night and then I remember going to sleep that night thinking, like, we have to run this thing now. So we did very haphazardly for 3 years. Mhmm. And we ended up having to sell it because we knew that we knew what we were doing. Fortunately, we found someone to buy it from us at a loss, and it really felt like a failure. And in thinking about it and afterwards, after realizing how much money we lost, how much time we put into this, what I realized, okay. Yes. It it it failed in terms of it wasn’t as booming business that we thought it would be, but we built a community of 300 women who showed up. And we we built that community. We learned a lot about ourselves and how to run a business. So even in that failure, there were definitely successes.

[00:13:33 – 00:14:02] Nitin Bajaj

Yes. And one thing I love about entrepreneurship, and I speak more than I should, is it teaches you what you’re made of and it puts you in positions of adversity that forces you to dig deeper to find a new you, a new version of you. And, also gets you to understand here are things that I do not like or do not want to do and these are not my strengths. But let me go find someone who has strengths where I have weaknesses.

[00:14:03 – 00:14:18] Van Lai-DuMone

I absolutely. I think coming from a, like, a a failure like that, I think I I was I’m I’m much more I never thought about it like that, but I now know that if I don’t know, I know at least I can find someone who knows.

[00:14:18 – 00:14:18] Nitin Bajaj

Yes.

[00:14:18 – 00:15:18] Van Lai-DuMone

Yeah. And then part of the success, I would say I don’t know if this I’m just gonna say it counts because this is a story I’m gonna tell. So it’s a story about using this framework that I teach in this book. So I really want as Van entrepreneur, like, I really wanna do a TEDx talk. And it’s again, one of those ideas that’s swirling around for quite some time. But those impostitions, who am I doing a TEDx talk? So many people talk about creativity. What more can I add? And then one day, I was on LinkedIn, scrolling through LinkedIn, and I saw someone had posted, they’re producing a TEDx talk in Anaheim, California. And Van Anaheim, California, it was called TEDx Women Mission of Mavericks. And I thought of my family story. So my when we came in from the United States, our first home was at Camp Pendleton Marine Base in San Diego. Then we were transferred to a refugee center up in Northern California in Sacramento called Hope Village. And it’s there that my mom became one of the first 20 licensed Vietnamese manicures in the United States, leading to what is now Van $8,300,000,000 industry.

[00:15:18 – 00:15:19] Nitin Bajaj

Yeah. And it

[00:15:19 – 00:15:36] Van Lai-DuMone

was all because of a curiosity. So I had this story, and I saw the this TEDx talk, right, Mission of Mavericks, TEDx women. And I immediately thought, I wanna speak on that stage. But as I read further, I saw that it was they had all their sneakers. All they were doing is selling tickets to to watch.

[00:15:37 – 00:15:37] Nitin Bajaj

So

[00:15:37 – 00:15:47] Van Lai-DuMone

I bought a ticket, and I walked away from my computer. But there it was, that idea, button, you should speak on that stage. You can speak like, why don’t you speak on that stage? What if you could? How might you?

[00:15:47 – 00:15:48] Nitin Bajaj

Mhmm. So I

[00:15:48 – 00:16:04] Van Lai-DuMone

went back to my computer and I just typed a short email to the producer saying, this is my story. Told a little bit of my mom’s story. I’d love to tell it on your TEDx stage and press send, which is the framework I teach in this book. Right? Pause and pay attention, ask what if, and take one courageous small step.

[00:16:04 – 00:16:05] Nitin Bajaj

Yes.

[00:16:05 – 00:16:18] Van Lai-DuMone

And 2 days later, she emailed back and said, we’d love for you to tell this story on our stage. And I did 6 weeks later, I was on a stage doing a TEDx talk, and that TEDx talk has really helped propel the work I do.

[00:16:19 – 00:16:27] Nitin Bajaj

That’s amazing. That’s such a story about resilience and also about taking that step because if we don’t, it’s never going to happen.

[00:16:28 – 00:16:54] Van Lai-DuMone

That’s right. That’s right. Absolutely. And the more you do it, the easier it becomes. I’m I do so many weird things now. I have a really good friend of mine who I met because I walked my dogs around my neighborhood, saw this company he worked for at the time. There’s it’s a company called, the Dollar Shave Club. Are you familiar with yeah. So they’re billing. Right? I’m like, that’s just like a fun company that would probably love what I do.

[00:16:54 – 00:16:54] Nitin Bajaj

Mhmm. So

[00:16:54 – 00:17:08] Van Lai-DuMone

I went back on got home after the dog walk and just started emailing people there and got someone connected back with me. And now we’re just we’re good friends. We do workshops together all the time. And it’s like you just never know unless you just make that first small step.

[00:17:09 – 00:17:26] Nitin Bajaj

So true. Thank you for sharing that because I know it’s inspiring to hear, but it’s also inspiring others to make that happen, to take that step. Because, yeah, we have so many ideas in our head, but it’s in the execution and taking that first step where we make it a possible success.

[00:17:26 – 00:17:33] Van Lai-DuMone

That’s right. That’s right. I when I talk about curiosity and when I do my keynote on curiosity, I always talk about curiosity as a noun.

[00:17:33 – 00:17:33] Nitin Bajaj

Mhmm.

[00:17:33 – 00:17:36] Van Lai-DuMone

To make it become a reality, you have to take action.

[00:17:37 – 00:17:38] Nitin Bajaj

Which is the word. Yep.

[00:17:38 – 00:17:43] Van Lai-DuMone

Yeah. And that action doesn’t have to be more than just one tiny step and see what opens up for you.

[00:17:44 – 00:17:56] Nitin Bajaj

So true. Now talking about fun, curiosity, taking action, what is the one thing you do to de stress, kick it back, and, just get some downtime?

[00:17:56 – 00:18:14] Van Lai-DuMone

We’ve talked about that even though we haven’t gone yet, but I love I used to be a surfer and I don’t be impressed. I was not ever a good surfer. I just like to surf. But now I love paddleboard. I love being on the water and just paddleboarding. So that’s something you and I know have in common, and we need to get out there on the water together.

[00:18:14 – 00:18:17] Nitin Bajaj

Yeah. We need to have our board meeting pretty soon.

[00:18:17 – 00:18:18] Van Lai-DuMone

That’s right. That’s right.

[00:18:19 – 00:18:24] Nitin Bajaj

Any book or podcast recommendations? I know you are biased towards 1 book.

[00:18:24 – 00:19:08] Van Lai-DuMone

Okay. So yes. Book recommendation. This is I’ll recommend 2. One book is is one that really helped me get started in my business. It’s called One Small Step Can Change Your Life, The Kaizen Way by doctor Robert Maurer, who’s become a mentor of mine now. And the other one is by Elizabeth Gilbert. It’s called Big Magic. Yes. And both of them really help you really actualize curiosity and bring your ideas to life by actionable steps. And doctor Robert Mauer’s book is based on neuroscience as well. So it tells you about what not only, like, how to take that one small step, but why. Why by taking one small step, you’re actually able to get your goals faster?

[00:19:09 – 00:19:19] Nitin Bajaj

Well, thank you for sharing those. Now on to my favorite part of the show, which we call the one line life lessons. We’d love for you to share your life lessons with us.

[00:19:20 – 00:19:22] Van Lai-DuMone

One line life lessons?

[00:19:22 – 00:19:22] Nitin Bajaj

Yes.

[00:19:23 – 00:19:26] Van Lai-DuMone

Okay. So how many can I share?

[00:19:27 – 00:19:28] Nitin Bajaj

Well, as many as you want.

[00:19:28 – 00:20:33] Van Lai-DuMone

Okay. So I would say you come growing up in the United States, in Santa Monica as one of the very few Asian women Asians at the time, I was I never truly lived into who I was. I was always trying to at home, trying to do what my parents were like and at school being what other people were like. I do a keynote now called stronger together by the sum of our differences. So I say life lesson number 1 is to own your differences. Right? That’s what that’s how you make that’s how you stand out and become successful, and that’s how you add to the world. It’s just by owning your differences. And then in terms of business, this is what I share often is this idea of permission. Don’t wait for permission. I’m often now spoken about as a subject matter expert in curiosity and creativity. Where I don’t know where that came from. I didn’t aim for that. No one gave Van permission to do that. What I did was I just started making myself visible. I started talking about curiosity. I started talking about creativity and and making and giving myself permission. So give yourself permission. Don’t wait for permission.

[00:20:34 – 00:20:36] Nitin Bajaj

Love that. If you have more, I would love

[00:20:36 – 00:21:28] Van Lai-DuMone

to hear them. I think again, another another one for for people who are starting in business. Another one I I share is just start and keep going. It’s that resilience you were talking about earlier. A lot most people don’t even start. Some people start and then some of and then a lot of peep those who start don’t keep going. And I read somewhere, I forgot who knows? It might have been Instagram memes that might have no reality to you at all. But it’s said most businesses fail because people don’t keep going. All businesses, no matter where you are on that life lifeline of business, you’re going to have up and downs. You’re gonna continue to have up and downs about how successful you are. But if you just give up and stop when you’re in a slump, then, of course, you’re never going to succeed. So so if you truly believe in what you’re doing and you have some level of success and good feedback, just keep going.

[00:21:29 – 00:22:13] Nitin Bajaj

That’s so true and so important. And also because entrepreneurship tends to be a lonely journey, you don’t have that sounding board or a group of other entrepreneurs or friends, if you will, that can continue to encourage you to keep going. You might think, oh, the world is passing me by. Look at my friends or my colleagues or who have you or relatives that are making that steady salary, guaranteed income. And here I am trying to chase this dream that maybe nobody else cares about and I’m missing out on so much in life. But it’s important to keep going. As you said, if you have enough validation, if you got into it for the right reasons, just keep going.

[00:22:13 – 00:22:31] Van Lai-DuMone

Yes. Absolutely. And then the like, this idea of defining your own success. Right? I think what you just said right there, I am also like, oh, should I just go get get a job at some point? There’s moments where you’re like, oh, wouldn’t it just be easier? All these people I know who have jobs, they go home and they’re done for the day. Like, we’re still going.

[00:22:31 – 00:22:38] Nitin Bajaj

One of our one line life lessons is salary is the bribe they pay you to kill your dreams.

[00:22:38 – 00:22:45] Van Lai-DuMone

Oh, wow. Yeah. That’ll keep you going on your funeral pursuit for sure. Yeah.

[00:22:45 – 00:23:00] Nitin Bajaj

Van, thank you so much for sharing your journey, your story, and your one line life lessons with us. We really appreciate it. Congratulations on all of the successes so far, and super excited for this upcoming launch and many more successes to come.

[00:23:01 – 00:23:06] Van Lai-DuMone

Thank you so much. And can I just say I’m so grateful that we met? Right? And one of those other curiosity that we just met, I was you had a little I think it was a pin with a pal border on it. I’m like, what’s that? So grateful that we met. I think this is be this is and becoming a beautiful friendship. And just a little bit of just reflection on this conversation, your energy is so calming. Thank you for that because I tend to be a little chaotic. So your energy is just it really helps to ground me. I’m sure many people have the same feeling when they’re around you.

[00:23:32 – 00:23:37] Nitin Bajaj

Thank you. Really appreciate it. And looking forward to a board meeting here pretty soon.

[00:23:37 – 00:23:37] Van Lai-DuMone

Yes.

[00:23:38 – 00:23:39] Nitin Bajaj

Thanks.